Let’s Argue About Sun Tzu! - Politics and Economics

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Let’s Argue About Sun Tzu!

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10-28-2018 , 07:42 PM

fxwacgesvrhdtf

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Sun Tzu was a Chinese general, military strategist, writer and philosopher who lived in the Eastern Zhou period of Ancient China circa 500 BC. Let’s argue about him!

Edit: Here’s a wikipedia article about him if you want to konw more! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu

Last edited by fxwacgesvrhdtf; 10-30-2018 at 04:26 PM.

10-29-2018 , 02:12 PM

57 On Red

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 5,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

Good thing you two didn't plan the D-Day invasion. There'd be a lot more goose stepping and a lot less Jews if you had.

Sun-Tzu was on Eisenhower's reading list at West Point, but so were a lot of other guys.

10-29-2018 , 02:34 PM

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57 On Red

Sun-Tzu was on Eisenhower's reading list at West Point, but so were a lot of other guys.

To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape—Sun Tzu

That’s the quote they LOLed. Apparently they think that no longer applies to humans.

10-29-2018 , 03:37 PM

57 On Red

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 5,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape—Sun Tzu

That’s the quote they LOLed. Apparently they think that no longer applies to humans.

Well, Allied troops ultimately under Eisenhower's command -- particularly Maczek's 1st Polish Armoured Division, part of Crerar's First Canadian Army, which was part of Monty's 21st Army Group -- did devote a certain amount of effort to closing the Falaise Gap in Normandy, so as to deny the enemy a way of escape. And the destruction wrought in the Falaise pocket by Allied artillery and tactical air power was pretty terrible, but it had to be done.

10-29-2018 , 05:11 PM

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57 On Red

All I’m saying is if you want the most fight from your side you limit their option of flight, and if you want the least fight from your enemy you leave open their option of flight.

10-29-2018 , 11:26 PM

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

All generals of WW2 did the exact opposite of what Sun-Tsu was advocating. Warfare has come a long way in the last 2500 years.

Okay, so what was the (Allied) "way of escape" at say Omaha Beach?

10-30-2018 , 12:01 AM

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

Okay, so what was the (Allied) "way of escape" at say Omaha Beach?

Before this derail turns into Band of Dumbers, what are your bonafides to talk military strategy? Where you in the military? Did you go through any officer training courses? Or did you just binge MASH growing up?

10-30-2018 , 12:23 AM

John21

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

Some, yes, yes, no.

10-30-2018 , 04:13 PM

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by 57 On Red

That is the view that chickenheart General Bradley took, when he ordered Patton not to attempt to close the Falaise Gap because it might get nasty. But it is not the view that Monty took when he ordered First Canadian Army to close the Gap because, if they let the enemy go, then the enemy would come back and kill Allied troops another day.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm (or Sun Tzu is) talking about. Here's a commentary on the quote:

Tu Mu: It is military doctrine that an encircling force must leave a gap to show the surrounded troops there is a way out, so that they will not be determined to fight to the death. Then, taking advantage of this, strike. Now, if I am in encircled ground, and the enemy opens a road in order to tempt my troops to take it, I close this means of escape so that my officers and men will have a mind to fight to the death. [emphasis added]

10-30-2018 , 04:23 PM

#10

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,190

Ugh, Band of Dunces it is...

10-30-2018 , 06:34 PM

#11

Louis Cyphre

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Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm (or Sun Tzu is) talking about. Here's a commentary on the quote:

Tu Mu: It is military doctrine that an encircling force must leave a gap to show the surrounded troops there is a way out, so that they will not be determined to fight to the death. Then, taking advantage of this, strike. Now, if I am in encircled ground, and the enemy opens a road in order to tempt my troops to take it, I close this means of escape so that my officers and men will have a mind to fight to the death. [emphasis added]

This was relevant when you had to fight the enemy hand-to-hand. During WWII being encircled for the most part meant annihilation. Sun-Tsu didn't know about artillery and air bombardments.

Military leadership on all sides constantly had an eye on the front line to avoid that a salient turns into a pocket via a pincer movement.
cf. Kursk, Stalingrad, Bulge

10-30-2018 , 06:49 PM

#12

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

Geez, the overarching topic is voter turnout. Never mind.

10-31-2018 , 07:09 AM

#13

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

All I’m saying is if you want the most fight from your side you limit their option of flight, and if you want the least fight from your enemy you leave open their option of flight.

It's applicability to politcs, replacing the physical kill for the victory in argument, is interesting and very real.

If you want people to change their minds on some passionately held position then it's better to allow them a graceful way out (escape route) rather than to insist on getting them to state they were wrong and apologise (victory).

A huge example of this could be brexit if we ever get in a position to overturn it. Finding a Sun Tzu escape route for the leavers is hopefully exercising some fine minds in the corridors of power.

10-31-2018 , 09:40 AM

#14

jalfrezi

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Last sentence looks like the ultimate in straw-clutching, but I hope you're right.

10-31-2018 , 09:58 AM

#15

Victor

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Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 72,321

Quote:

Originally Posted by John21

To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape—Sun Tzu

That’s the quote they LOLed. Apparently they think that no longer applies to humans.

it wasnt the quote we were critical of, it was using this dude as an authority.

10-31-2018 , 10:24 AM

#16

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Last sentence looks like the ultimate in straw-clutching, but I hope you're right.

There's no clutching going on.

(Huge win) x (small but not tiny chance) makes it well worth the effort.

10-31-2018 , 12:01 PM

#17

John21

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Viciously attack the politician or the political issue but not the person who voted for one or the other. People are far less motivated to defend a politician or a political issue than they are themselves if the attacks become personalized. When it’s their ass on the line, they’ll fight with everything they have; when it's not, they won't.

10-31-2018 , 01:13 PM

#18

iamnotawerewolf

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Quote:

To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape

Having no military training or experience, my reading is to leave a [controlled] way of escape.

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