I still don't understand, if you know who Bob is and you know Bob's not breaking any laws, why don't you just leave him alone?

+1,000,000

Well I'm in the fortunate position of being able to pick and choose who I will and won't work for. But yes, I engage my clients with professionalism. If a client is douchey enough to me, I will ask him to seek services elsewhere. That hasn't happened yet but it could happen, I wouldn't be surprised.

If a client is a little douchey to me, but I think it's still worth the paycheck, I will not stoop down to his level. Call me a martyr or a pussy or whatever, but I do my best to take the high road, get the job done, gtfo and get paid. I think that's what you have to do in this situation.

This is something I've said for a long time. Cops have no incentive to be professional because their "clients" are legally barred from "taking their business elsewhere." It's entirely unsurprising that police are, on the whole, less professional than people of other occupations.

There's somewhat of an incentive. I'm sure constant complaints will come back to haunt the officer at some point. I agree with you though that there's less incentive than there should be to be professional. My pet peeve is how horribly unprofessional it is for a police department to give incentives for officers to write traffic tickets, or turning traffic citations into a revenue issue rather than a safety issue.

So, tell me, why do cops get to hold me for an hour for being a douche? No one else has that option or ability, why do cops? I'm not required to be nice to cops. I'm not required to be nice to anybody, and in general I'm not nice to anybody I don't know. Why should I be required to treat random stranger who happens to have a badge any differently?

Had you approached me on the street and started asking me questions the cop did, I simply would have ignored you and kept walking. That or I would have told you to go the **** away. As it was, I answered a few of the cops questions before I got fed up and decided to waste as much of his time as humanly possible.

Here's the general outline of how my first OC detainment went (as far as I can remember obv):

Cop pulls up next to me toggles his siren and pulls over in front of me.
Cop gets out and says, "how ya doing?"
Me: Fine, you
Cop: Where are you headed
Me: Home (I would not have answered this question for anyone else)
Cop: Where do you live
Me: Just up the road (definitely wouldn't have answered this question for any rando)
Cop: What are you up to
Me: Walking, I was just at the store (now I'm getting pissed)
Cop: Why are you carrying a gun
Me: Because I can
Cop: Do you have a permit for that
Me: Yes (at this point he crossed the line, citizens aren't required to have a permit for any weapon unless they are carrying it concealed in my state. He had no business asking this. This is where I decided to turn into a dick)
Cop: Can I see it
Me: No

This is where the conversation should have ended, period. Perhaps he could have asked me for ID, but after I refused that, he had absolutely no justification for carrying on any sort of conversation with me. Everything after this was 100% the cops fault.

Cop: I have a right to see your permit
Me: You're either lying or your ignorant. Either way, your not getting my CCW (concealed carry permit)
Cop: You think you know the law better than me
Me: Obviously
Cop: Why are you being an ass about this
Me: Are you detaining me? Am I free to go?
Cop: I'm questioning you.
Me: Fine I do not consent to any form of questioning. I'm leaving.
Cop: You're not leaving until I say so.
Me: Fine, so you're detaining me.
Cop: Call it whatever you want.
Me: I want a lawyer.
Cop: You're not under arrest. You don't have the right to a lawyer.
Me: *Laughs*
Cop: Let me see your ID.
Me: No (next cop shows up around this time)
Cop: I need to see your ID.
Me: No, and stop talking to me w/o a lawyer present.
Cop: What's your name
Me: Will
Cop: Last name as well
Me: I want a lawyer

Shortly after this I was handcuffed and had my gun and wallet taken from me. For the rest of the encounter I alternated between asking if I was being charged with anything, asking for a lawyer, and asking when I can leave. I never said anything else to any of them.

In all, a dozen or so officers cycled through the scene. I figure in the hour they had me detained I wasted about six to seven man-hours of their time. 6 to 1 is a pretty reasonable use of my time. I'll grant you, I didn't expect them to be so completely incompetent, but that just worked to my advantage.

The cop had zero reason to stop and talk to me to begin with, and he sure as hell didn't have any right to attempt to id me. You see Zikzac, I don't usually have a problem interacting with cops. If they have a legitimate reason to talk with me (pulled me over for speeding or whatever), I'm completely polite and cooperative. However, once they cross the line and start "investigating" me without any cause, I take offense to it. At that point, I make it my mission to waste as much of their time as possible. This entire episode happened because the cop overstepped his authority, not because I did anything wrong.

Dbl: I've got to ask, why do you (and cops in general) insist on confronting open carriers? You know who they are, you know what they're doing, you know what they want (a confrontation with you). So, once you see that it's the same old jack asses doing the same old thing, why don't you just drive by and wave? You're not legally required to make contact just because you got a 9-11 call, and yet you insist on doing it anyway. I just don't understand the point from a cops perspective.

Wow, you were being even more douchey than I had expected.

Does it? I think you're so blinded by 2nd amendment dogma and some sort of authority complex that you don't even get what it's all about.

I have no problem with this other than that it seems pretty stupid giving a criminal advance warning that you're coming to arrest them.

Required by policy, not law.

You've gotta understand, America is generally inhabited by people who fall into 3 categories

A) People who respect the police
B) People who hate the police
C) People who think the police should solve all their problems.

I'd roughly estimate 911 callers on OCers are about 85% out of column (C). These people are also the ones very likely to take a corner and wait to see how long the response time is, what action I took, etc.

I pull that smile and wave, I'm in violation of policy, in front of the group most likely in my experience to log a complaint. I know logically you'd assume it'd be the type B guys, but as witnessed repeatedly here when I made a genuine comment to you about contacting the Chief, most of these types just assume "telling cops on cops, that'll work LDO" and go home and blog about it or post videos on YouTube or whatnot. These C types call and lodge numerous complaints.

Furthermore, what happened to you is a clear infringement on your rights. I disagree that me stopping and BSing with Bob for 5 min when he's just BEGGING to talk to me anyway is a violation of his.

Glad you have a opinion...

For the sake of argument, let's say your right, I'm a douche (believe me I'd treat you just as bad if not worse if you approached me on the street). So answer my questions, then I'll get to yours.

Dbl: It sounds like you guys have a policy problem, then. Honestly, you know for a fact it's a complete waste of time, and you know for a fact they are harmless to you and the rest of society. So your policy is to waste your time (and the counties money) on these jackasses?

You don't have questions. You're just full of rage and lashing out in unproductive directions imo. Develop a little empathy and try being nicer to people.

rofl, pathetic.

DBJ's not gonna be a big fan of this imo


http://news.petpardons.com/north-car...full-back-pay/


It shows the video of him kicking the dog.

I find this completely bewildering. Regardless of whether you are legally obliged, it seems easier just to show the guy your permit and move on. What are you gaining by behaving like this?

I'd love to kick him. Damn shame in this situation the dept did the right thing and the court is basically forcing the dept to take him back.

dbl i think you seem very reasonable and i've enjoyed your contributions to the thread. that said, i think the issue with the "i'm a person too, why shouldn't i have the right to talk to you/make fun of you/etc" is that you can do those things as a fellow person/citizen, sure. but once you want to do them as a LEO, and have the expectation that the person will comply or engage u because you're a LEO, you've moved into muddy waters.

a regular person engaged in regular discourse with another person can say "lol, u suck, *******," and walk away. can a person do this when engaged in discourse with u as a LEO?

Sure, as long as they aren't bring detained. A good rule of thumb to remember is a cops not generally going to ask you to do anything he doesn't have to.

If for example you're walking down the road, you'll notice the difference if a cop says "Hey Paul, can I talk to you for a second" where as he may say "Sir, stop right there."

The former is, and this is per the SCOTUS, not my opinion, an individual request for conversation outside the color of law. The latter is a lawful order and detention exercised under full color of law.

you'd be cool with them calling u an ******* tho? i repeat that not to be a nit, but because it's an accepted (even standard) part of regular interaction w/ another person that annoys u.

Sure, but just like any other human interaction, they certainly shouldn't say it to me if they aren't prepared for an equally douchy response.

I'm also in disagreement that such language is "standard" for social interaction with those that annoy you.

It certainly isn't for me, but possibly I'm the odd one. I'd like to hear from other posters on this.

Sure, it's probably easier to simply comply considering he wasn't going to find anything by running a check on my name. However, at the moment he asked for my permit the interaction changed from a simple conversation* (which I don't like, but I was tolerating to a reasonable extent) to an official investigation. When a cop asks you for a piece of information that can positively ID you it is not an innocent, or reasonable imo, request. He asked for that for one reason and one reason only, he wanted to run my name for warrants/convictions.

Believe it or not, some people take offense to being investigated when there's no justifiable cause for the investigation. That, and I will never willingly cooperate with a cop who's trolling around looking for evidence so that he can arrest me. If you do, you're an abysmal fool.

*Actually, I'm sure dbl will agree with me, even seemingly innocuous conversations can very easily be used to attempt to gain probably cause. Which is one of the reasons why the SCOTUS ruling dbl mentioned is complete BS, no conversation with police can be completely construed as "outside the color of the law".

I agree with you that, in theory, a citizen is allowed to say that to an officer. I strongly suggest however, that any citizen contemplating such behavior be prepared for a much harsher response from the officer than "equally douchey" words. The standard "contempt of cop" punishments would almost certainly be forthcoming.

I agree again, such language is not standard for most social interactions. But then again, neither is "lay face down in the street", "I need to you to empty your pockets" or "where you comin from, where you goin, what are you doing here, show me your id"

In all 3 of these situations you're being detained under color of law, so it really wouldn't apply to the hypothetical Paul and I are discussing.

ya standard isn't the right word there. i don't mean that it happens all the time, i mean that when it does happen, the other person doesn't face legal consequences or anything.

i actually didn't know u could swear at a cop - i assumed there was some kind of rule prohibiting 'disrespect to a police officer' or something similar.

Not anywhere Id willingly live. That's BS law right there.

headasplode.gif

"they want to get us to do stupid ****, so we do stupid **** to deprive them of us doing stupid ****"

good show, chaps