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Old 01-19-2012, 12:52 PM   #451
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by dkgojackets View Post
I would say it's a pretty bad thing if someone could murder people with an ax then just drive away really fast.
Me too. Of course, it's a lot more difficult than some quickmeme scumbag steve "give cop the finger, get away with it forever"
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #452
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This. It's absurd that dblbarrel is still pushing this "we'll never see them again" baloney. of course some people are going to flee. But the vast majority of them are dumb and have limited resources and aren't going to be able to just vanish into thin air.
So you're OK with becoming a felon if someone steals your car?
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:10 PM   #453
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Re: Law and Order 2

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I'd like for you to explain how we reach this conclusion. This is the heart of the issue. When someone can show me how to successfully accomplish the quoted, within the parameters you guys are seeking, I'll concede the point.

I have repeatedly stated, answered only with a handwave or completely ignored, that the issue I have is being able to provide strong enough consequences to deter most from running. I've shown, I believe successfully and logically, the fatal flaw with the "Just Get The Tag" argument.

If you see holes in my logic or another way, I'm open to it.

As it stands right now, I fail to see where the hypothetical speeder is really risking much of anything at all, to receive his reward of no speeding ticket.
running from the cops in a car is a pretty serious thing and I think the vast majority of people agree with me. When I was a kid drinking in the woods we would run from the cops if they showed up but I would never run from the cops in a car and doubt many people would. I wouldn't run because whatever I'm getting pulled over for is very minor compared to running from the cops in a car, that's serious stuff. I suspect people do this to avoid jail with a smaller % being kids who are idiots or something.

I grant there is no easy answer. There are consequences based on the current SOP and there would be consequences if the SOP were relaxed. I seriously doubt people who wouldn't run from the cops now would run from them just because they knew the cops wouldn't chase them, plus we are I believe, talking about 'chases', not cops following someone who doesn't pull over but isn't driving like a bat out of hell either.

So what would the consequences be? Some felons get away is the way I see it. How many are a real threat to the public as in violent people who are murderes or serial armed robbers? I really don't care if shoplifters and drug sellers who are looking at 9months in jail run, to me that's worth the decreased risk of people getting hurt or killed as a result of a police chase. If they are not going to kill someone in the next year as part of their criminal behavior I don't really care if they run and get away. Eventually they will get picked up by the cops one way or another. I only care about the guys who are a threat to the lives of innocents, like someone wanted for murder or someone who is robbing banks on a regular with a gun. Those guys need to be off the streets and I concede it's worth the risk to do a police chase to grab those guys but what % of those that run fall into that catagory vs. ppl looking at a year in jail?
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:16 PM   #454
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Re: Law and Order 2

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This. It's absurd that dblbarrel is still pushing this "we'll never see them again" baloney. of course some people are going to flee. But the vast majority of them are dumb and have limited resources and aren't going to be able to just vanish into thin air.
This is the thing. Criminals who wind up in jail, or wind up with arrest records, are basically stupid (and/or impulsive, they are doing things that non idiots realize will always get them caught). So they will be caught in the future even if the cops don't actively search for them. I say wait for a less risky time to grab them.

What % of runners are an ongoing violent risk to innocent citizens? 1%? Less? I don't consider drug dealers, even if they have violent records, to be a risk to innocent citizens. I lived in 'da hood' for over 12 years, a white guy in a black hood, and was never threatened despite gun fire happening every night and gangs all over the place. The violence was contained within the drug circles.
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:34 PM   #455
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Re: Law and Order 2

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So you're OK with becoming a felon if someone steals your car?
lol

so if someone steals my car and gets into a police chase TODAY, and MANAGES TO GET AWAY from them (which does happen), do *I* become a felon?
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:59 PM   #456
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Re: Law and Order 2

So the general consensus seems to be I'm right, but in general you guys don't care how many people, whether violent crimes or theft crimes, get away. A lot of handwaving,

"People will follow the law"

"Running from the police is srs bzniz" etc, but mostly just a lot of "ok, so nobody has to stop now. I see no ill consequences."


I'd also like to ask again, can anyone provide a logical solution for traffic control if the police no longer have the authority to stop vehicles and control traffic?
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:03 PM   #457
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
So the general consensus seems to be I'm right, but in general you guys don't care how many people, whether violent crimes or theft crimes, get away. A lot of handwaving,
lol wut

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I'd also like to ask again, can anyone provide a logical solution for traffic control if the police no longer have the authority to stop vehicles and control traffic?
wtf are you talking about?
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:10 PM   #458
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Re: Law and Order 2

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I'd also like to ask again, can anyone provide a logical solution for traffic control if the police no longer have the authority to stop vehicles and control traffic?
The markets will take care of it. Profit motive. (wrong thread?)
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:12 PM   #459
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
So the general consensus seems to be I'm right, but in general you guys don't care how many people, whether violent crimes or theft crimes, get away. A lot of handwaving,

"People will follow the law"

"Running from the police is srs bzniz" etc, but mostly just a lot of "ok, so nobody has to stop now. I see no ill consequences."


I'd also like to ask again, can anyone provide a logical solution for traffic control if the police no longer have the authority to stop vehicles and control traffic?
Who is suggesting that? All anyone is suggesting that the police be required to weigh the risks of a chase against the threat to public safety. The risk of allowing this guy to get away is unknown, but the risk to public safety is known. I think making the government strictly liable for the damage from a police chase would be a good solution. I am not in favor of having a government, but if we are going to have a government making them strictly liable for chases means that they will only engage in which the threat of leaving the suspect at large outweighs the risk of apprehending him.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:18 PM   #460
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Re: Law and Order 2

oh, dblbarrel is still under the weird impression that if you criticize ANY particular police chase you MUST by necessity be arguing that cops should NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be allowed to chase anyone.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:18 PM   #461
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Re: Law and Order 2

AX MURDERERS THO

YOU HATE GOVERNMENT SO IM NOT TALKING TO YOU THO

etc

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Old 01-19-2012, 05:19 PM   #462
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Re: Law and Order 2

Well basically PVN, I'm following your theories out to their logical conclusion, which is being ignored.

You're screaming "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?" about a very small percentage of tragedies, while totally ignoring the lives you're risking because of a total lack of traffic control.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:23 PM   #463
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Re: Law and Order 2

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The markets will take care of it. Profit motive. (wrong thread?)
+1000
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:49 PM   #464
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Re: Law and Order 2

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I'd also like to ask again, can anyone provide a logical solution for traffic control if the police no longer have the authority to stop vehicles and control traffic?
How about we double the ammt of $60/hr cops standing around roadside construction?
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:52 PM   #465
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Well basically PVN, I'm following your theories out to their logical conclusion, which is being ignored.
No, you're not.

The logical conclusion of "engaging in a pursuit of someone who didn't do anything other than have a broken tail light is dumb" is not "no cops should ever be allowed to engage in pursuit under any circumstances".
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #466
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Who is suggesting that? All anyone is suggesting that the police be required to weigh the risks of a chase against the threat to public safety. The risk of allowing this guy to get away is unknown, but the risk to public safety is known. I think making the government strictly liable for the damage from a police chase would be a good solution. I am not in favor of having a government, but if we are going to have a government making them strictly liable for chases means that they will only engage in which the threat of leaving the suspect at large outweighs the risk of apprehending him.
I think this would only work if people's jobs were on the line rather than gov't being held financially liable though.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #467
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Well basically PVN, I'm following your theories out to their logical conclusion, which is being ignored.

You're screaming "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?" about a very small percentage of tragedies, while totally ignoring the lives you're risking because of a total lack of traffic control.
Why don't you respond to my question re: what % of those who run are actually some kind of eminent threat to innocent civilians lives compared to those trying to avoid 1yr or less of jail or something like that?
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:01 PM   #468
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Re: Law and Order 2

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The logical conclusion of "engaging in a pursuit of someone who didn't do anything other than have a broken tail light is dumb"
Of course it is. So pretend you're a cop for a minute. You blue light somebody for a broken taillight. They immediately floor it, weaving in and out of traffic, behaving recklessly.

Do you think "Damn, they must really want to avoid this non moving equipment violation" or do you think "hmmm, good probability I've stumbled upon something a bit more serious than a broken taillight?"
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:07 PM   #469
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Re: Law and Order 2

This may not be the case, but don't a lot of the ppl who are 'really' dangerous simply pull over and try to make themselves ready to blow the cops head off should he discover their true history (i.e. they are wanted for murder or something) while hoping the cop lets them go with a ticket or something?

Also, what % of people actually escape when they run from the cops in a car?
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:10 PM   #470
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Of course it is. So pretend you're a cop for a minute. You blue light somebody for a broken taillight. They immediately floor it, weaving in and out of traffic, behaving recklessly.

Do you think "Damn, they must really want to avoid this non moving equipment violation" or do you think "hmmm, good probability I've stumbled upon something a bit more serious than a broken taillight?"
So I'm asking that you consider the risk to the public from a police chace and compare that to the risk to the public from letting the person drive off.

...and I mean theoretically right now, not as a cop on duty in the moment something like this were to happen.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:15 PM   #471
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Re: Law and Order 2

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So I'm asking that you consider the risk to the public from a police chace and compare that to the risk to the public from letting the person drive off.

...and I mean theoretically right now, not as a cop on duty in the moment something like this were to happen.
Have you actually done this? More than just a 'gut feeling' sort of consideration, I mean? If so, I'm sure you have numbers that would prove your point, right? Rather than just a 'think about it' argument.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:16 PM   #472
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Originally Posted by DblBarrelJ View Post
Of course it is. So pretend you're a cop for a minute. You blue light somebody for a broken taillight. They immediately floor it, weaving in and out of traffic, behaving recklessly.

Do you think "Damn, they must really want to avoid this non moving equipment violation" or do you think "hmmm, good probability I've stumbled upon something a bit more serious than a broken taillight?"
OK, I'm not sure you know what a "logical conclusion" is. Or maybe you're under the impression that 100% of chases are initiated as a result of someone trying to avoid getting pulled over for a taillight.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:18 PM   #473
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Re: Law and Order 2

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Why don't you respond to my question re: what % of those who run are actually some kind of eminent threat to innocent civilians lives compared to those trying to avoid 1yr or less of jail or something like that?
What percentage isn't really relevant to me, not nearly as much as how to identify the difference.

Of course the percentage is higher of morons without licenses, but I've seen people do things while being pursued that makes me LOL a bit about them not being a "threat to the public".
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:19 PM   #474
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Re: Law and Order 2

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I think this would only work if people's jobs were on the line rather than gov't being held financially liable though.
I think jobs would be on the line if the entire budget of a municipality was spend paying judgments rather than wages. Even though the government is at times resistant to economic forces, in the end they do respond to economic forces.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:22 PM   #475
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Re: Law and Order 2

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...and I mean theoretically right now, not as a cop on duty in the moment something like this were to happen.
WTF does this matter BK?
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