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06-19-2017 , 02:22 PM
Yea but how do the economic poles work?

If I believe in more government intervention in the economy via higher taxes and redistribution, am I economically conservative or liberal? Liberal can mean the former but it can also mean less government intervention.

Also given its entrenchment as status quo is not someone who is a economic neoliberal economically conservative?

Im sure if you asked a ton of Texas homies who believed in small government etc they would describe themselves as economically conservative tho.
06-19-2017 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
But the reason it's depressing is that the quadrant that's good doesn't have any dots in it!
that quadrant has outsized influence though. it's still the most powerful one (in decent working countries) largely because it's right.
06-19-2017 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
That could be because that quadrant is basically a myth.
what does this even mean
06-19-2017 , 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
I'm not sure how annoyed I should be that the Trump thread has become the catchall for all politics posting regardless of whether it has anything to do with Trump, but I am finding it annoying.
Which Trump thread, tho?
06-19-2017 , 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
what does this even mean
Basically that anyone who categorizes themselves thusly understands neither social liberalism nor fiscal conservativism

http://huffpost.com/us/entry/7155550
06-19-2017 , 03:02 PM
That link is basically a myth.
06-19-2017 , 03:06 PM
Here are 7 things people who say they’re ‘fiscally conservative but socially liberal’ don’t understand
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/here...nt-understand/
Quote:
1: Poverty, and the cycle of poverty. This is the big one. Poverty is a social issue. The cycle of poverty — the ways that poverty itself makes it harder to get out of poverty, the ways that poverty can be a permanent trap lasting for generations — is a social issue, and a human rights issue.

If you’re poor, there’s about a two in three chance that you’re going to stay poor for at least a year, about a two in three chance that if you do pull out of poverty you’ll be poor again within five years — and about a two in three chance that your children are going to be poor. Among other things: Being poor makes it much harder to get education or job training that would help you get higher-paying work. Even if you can afford job training or it’s available for free — if you have more than one job, or if your work is menial and exhausting, or if both of those are true (often the case if you’re poor), there’s a good chance you won’t have the time or energy to get that training, or to look for higher-paying work. Being poor typically means you can’t afford to lose your job — which means you can’t afford to unionize, or otherwise push back against your wages and working conditions. It means that a temporary crisis — sickness or injury, job loss, death in the family — can destroy your life: you have no cushion, nobody you know has a cushion, a month or two without income and you’re totally screwed. If you do lose your job, or if you’re disabled, the labyrinthine bureaucracy of unemployment and disability benefits is exhausting: if you do manage to navigate it, it can deplete your ability to do much of anything else to improve your life — and if you can’t navigate it, that’s very likely going to tank your life.

Also, ironically, being poor is expensive. You can’t buy high-quality items that last longer and are a bargain in the long run. You can’t buy in bulk. You sure as hell can’t buy a house: depending on where you live, monthly mortgage payments might be lower than the rent you’re paying, but you can’t afford a down payment, and chances are a bank won’t give you a mortgage anyway. You can’t afford the time or money to take care of your health — which means you’re more likely to get sick, which is expensive. If you don’t have a bank account (which many poor people don’t), you have to pay high fees at check-cashing joints. If you run into a temporary cash crisis, you have to borrow from price-gouging payday-advance joints. If your car breaks down and you can’t afford to repair or replace it, it can mean unemployment. If you can’t afford a car at all, you’re severely limited in what jobs you can take in the first place — a limitation that’s even more severe when public transportation is wildly inadequate. If you’re poor, you may have to move a lot — and that’s expensive. These aren’t universally true for all poor people — but way too many of them are true, for way too many people.

Second chances, once considered a hallmark of American culture and identity, have become a luxury. One small mistake — or no mistake at all, simply the mistake of being born poor — can trap you there forever.

Plus, being poor doesn’t just mean you’re likely to stay poor. It means that if you have children, they’re more likely to stay poor. It means you’re less able to give your children the things they need to flourish — both in easily-measurable tangibles like good nutrition, and less-easily-measurable qualities like a sense of stability. The effect of poverty on children — literally on their brains, on their ability to literally function — is not subtle, and it lasts into adulthood. Poverty’s effect on adults is appalling enough. Its effect on children is an outrage.

And in case you hadn’t noticed, poverty — including the cycle of poverty and the effect of poverty on children — disproportionately affects African Americans, Hispanics, other people of color, women, trans people, disabled people, and other marginalized groups.

So what does this have to do with fiscal policy? Well, duh. Poverty is perpetuated or alleviated, worsened or improved, by fiscal policy. That’s not the only thing affecting poverty, but it’s one of the biggest things. To list just a few of the most obvious examples of very direct influence: Tax policy. Minimum wage. Funding of public schools and universities. Unionization rights. Banking and lending laws. Labor laws. Funding of public transportation. Public health care. Unemployment benefits. Disability benefits. Welfare policy. Public assistance that doesn’t penalize people for having savings. Child care. Having a functioning infrastructure, having economic policies that support labor, having a tax system that doesn’t steal from the poor to give to the rich, having a social safety net — a real safety net, not one that just barely keeps people from starving to death but one that actually lets people get on their feet and function — makes a difference. When these systems are working, and are working well, it’s easier for people to get out of poverty. When they’re not, it’s difficult to impossible. And I haven’t even gotten into the fiscal policy of so-called “free” trade, and all the ways it feeds poverty both in the U.S. and around the world. (I’ll get to that in a bit.)

Fiscal policy affects poverty. And in the United States, “fiscally conservative” means supporting fiscal policies that perpetuate poverty. “Fiscally conservative” means slashing support systems that help the poor, lowering taxes for the rich, cutting corners for big business, and screwing labor — policies that both worsen poverty and make it even more of an inescapable trap.

2: Domestic violence, workplace harassment, and other abuse. See above, re: cycle of poverty. If someone is being beaten by their partner, harassed or assaulted at work, abused by their parents — and if they’re poor, and if there’s ****-all for a social safety net — it’s a hell of a lot harder for them to leave. What’s more, the stress of poverty itself — especially inescapable, entrapped poverty — contributes to violence and abuse.

And you know who gets disproportionately targeted with domestic violence and workplace harassment? Women. Especially women of color. And LGBT folks — especially trans women of color, and LGBT kids and teenagers. Do you care about racist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynist violence? Then quit undercutting the social safety net. A solid safety net — a safety net that isn’t made of tissue paper, and that doesn’t require the people in it to constantly scramble just to stay there, much less to climb out — isn’t going to magically eliminate this violence and harassment. But it sure makes it easier for people to escape it.

3: Disenfranchisement. There’s a cycle that in some ways is even uglier than the cycle of poverty — because it blocks people from changing the policies that keep the cycle of poverty going. I’m talking about the cycle of disenfranchisement.

I’m talking about the myriad ways that the super-rich control the political process — and in controlling the political process, both make themselves richer and give themselves even more control over the political process. Purging voter rolls. Cutting polling place hours. Cutting back on early voting — especially in poor districts. Voter ID laws. Roadblocks to voter registration — noticeably aimed at people likely to vote progressive. Questionable-at-best voter fraud detection software, which — by some wild coincidence — tends to flag names that are common among minorities. Eliminating Election Day registration. Restricting voter registration drives. Gerrymandering — creating voting districts with the purpose of skewing elections in your favor.

Voter suppression is a real thing in the United States. And these policies are set in place by the super-rich — or, to be more precise, by the government officials who are buddies with the super-rich and are beholden to them. These policies are not set in place to reduce voter fraud: voter fraud is extremely rare in the U.S., to the point of being almost non-existent. The policies are set in place to make voting harder for people who would vote conservative plutocrats out of office. If you’re skeptical about whether this is actually that deliberate, whether these policies really are written by plutocratic villains cackling over how they took even more power from the already disempowered — remember Pennsylvania Republican House Leader Mike Turzai, who actually said, in words, “Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.”

Remember former Florida Republican chairman Jim Greer, who actually said, in words, “We’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us.” Remember the now-former North Carolina Republican official Don Yelton, who actually said, in words, that voter restrictions including voter ID were “going to kick Democrats in the butt.” Remember the Texas Republican attorney general and candidate for governor Greg Abbott, who actually said, in words, that “their redistricting decisions were designed to increase the Republican Party’s electoral prospects at the expense of the Democrats.” Remember Doug Preisse, Republican chair of Franklin County (Ohio’s second-largest county) who actually said (well, wrote), in words, that Ohio Republicans were pushing hard to limit early voting because “I guess I really actually feel we shouldn’t contort the voting process to accommodate the urban — read African-American — voter-turnout machine.” (And no, the “read African-American” clarification isn’t mine — it’s his.) Remember… oh, you get the idea. Disenfranchisement is not some accidental side effect of Republican-sponsored voting restrictions. Disenfranchisement is the entirely intentional point.

And on top of that, you’ve got campaign finance laws saying that corporations are people, too — “people” with just as much right as you or I to donate millions of dollars to candidates who’ll write laws helping them out. When you’ve got fiscal policies that enrich the already rich — such as regressive tax policies, deregulation of businesses, deregulation of the financial industry — and you combine them with campaign finance laws that have essentially legalized bribery, you get a recipe for a cycle of disenfranchisement. The more that rich people control the political process, the richer they get — and the richer they get, the more they control the political process.

4: Racist policing. There’s a whole lot going on with racist policing in the United States. Obviously. But a non-trivial chunk of it is fiscal policy. Ferguson shone a spotlight on this, but it isn’t just in Ferguson — it’s all over the country. In cities and counties and towns across the United States, the government is funded, in large part, by tickets and fines for municipal violations — and by the meta-system of interest, penalties, surcharges, and fees on those tickets and fines, which commonly turn into a never-ending debt amounting to many, many times the original fine itself.

This is, for all intents and purposes, a tax. It’s a tax on poor people. It’s a tax on poor people for being poor, for not having a hundred dollars in their bank account that they can drop at a moment’s notice on a traffic ticket. And it’s a tax that disproportionately targets black and brown people. When combined with the deeply ingrained culture of racism in many many many police forces — a police culture that hammers black and brown people for the crime of existing — it is a tax on black and brown people, purely for being black or brown. But Loki forbid we raise actual taxes. Remember the fiscal conservative mantra: “Low taxes good! High taxes bad!” High taxes are bad — unless we don’t call them a tax. If we call it a penalty or a fine, that’s just peachy. And if it’s disproportionately levied by a racist police force on poor black people, who have little visibility or power and are being systematically disenfranchised — that’s even better. What are they going to do about it? And who’s going to care? It’s not as if black lives matter. What’s more: You know some of the programs that have been proposed to reduce racist policing? Programs like automatic video monitoring of police encounters? An independent federal agency to investigate and discipline local policing, to supplement or replace ineffective, corrupt, or non-existent self-policing? Those take money. Money that comes from taxes. Money that makes government a little bit bigger. Fiscal conservatism — the reflexive cry of “Lower taxes! Smaller government!” — contributes to racist policing. Even if you, personally, oppose racist policing, supporting fiscal conservatism makes you part of the problem.

5: Drug policy and prison policy. Four words: The new Jim Crow. Drug war policies in the United States — including sentencing policies, probation policies, which drugs are criminalized and how severely, laws banning felons convicted on drug charges from voting, and more — have pretty much zero effect on reducing the harm that can be done by drug abuse. They don’t reduce drug use, they don’t reduce drug addiction, they don’t reduce overdoses, they don’t reduce accidents or violence that can be triggered by drug abuse. If anything, these policies make all of this worse.

[...]
06-19-2017 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
Yea but how do the economic poles work?

If I believe in more government intervention in the economy via higher taxes and redistribution, am I economically conservative or liberal? Liberal can mean the former but it can also mean less government intervention.

Also given its entrenchment as status quo is not someone who is a economic neoliberal economically conservative?

Im sure if you asked a ton of Texas homies who believed in small government etc they would describe themselves as economically conservative tho.
Quote:
It looks like this is how they coded economically liberal/conservative

To do this, I created two new indexes:

An economic liberalism-conservatism index (which combines views on the social safety net, trade, inequality, and active government)
So it seems to be a "naive" approach to coding liberalism/conservationism, it doesn't ask what "interventionist" government vs a "non interventionist" government actually means so it's a bit of using code words to signal intent. Which I mean, fair enough, because that's how most politics works. Case in point, Republicans still love Medicare/Medicaid and absolutely hate "government intervention".

I think an issue with the survey is the endogeneity problem. People are ignorant of specific policy and look towards to parties for guidance so Alaska and Texas both have the very interventionist, big government idea of sovereign wealth funds, but local Republicans almost never attack it as such and many times actually support it because it's not coded as government intervention for those specific states. See also Obamacare as a Republican idea or an imaginary federal sovereign wealth fund proposed by Democrats.

Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 06-19-2017 at 03:24 PM.
06-19-2017 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Here are 7 things people who say they’re ‘fiscally conservative but socially liberal’ don’t understand
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/here...nt-understand/
I think bobman understands all of those things, though.
06-19-2017 , 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
This is kind of a depressing chart:

why is that depressing? It just confirms the general 2+2 consensus that liberatarians are a marginal group of aspies
06-19-2017 , 03:55 PM
Marketing firm for RNC "accidentally" exposes personal info of pretty much every voter in the entire country

https://politics.slashdot.org/story/...r-records-leak
06-19-2017 , 04:35 PM
a large part is methodology anyway

how can every voting group be to the right on some issue (pride in america)? shouldnt that just move the centre? on the right compared to what?



similarly if fidel castro is the centre there's probably a decent bit of americans more socially liberal and economically conservative.
06-19-2017 , 04:38 PM
if the centre is how legislation is typically carried out then it mainly shows that american policies/policy makers are more socially liberal and economically conservative than the population at large, which is probably true.

edit: but that's probably more an issue on the secondary charts. i guess on the main one the average voter is a 0, 0

Last edited by daca; 06-19-2017 at 04:45 PM.
06-19-2017 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
On Monday, I tried to deposit cash into my CU account from a PNC ATM. (Standard, part of same network. I mistakenly used my Capital One credit card to activate the machine. It took my money and gave me a receipt, but the recept said the transaction didn't go through.

After an hour at the branch and maybe 6 hours on the phone, they have both made clear that they're not helping. PNC because they want Cap One to file a dispute, Cap One won't file the dispute because they have no record of the transaction. I filed a complaint with the state AG, thank god I live in a blue state, the next step will prob be a small claims suit.
Update: AG didn't respond, lawsuit filed.
06-19-2017 , 05:49 PM
Yeah that study is completely unsurprising for anyone who had a conversation with any "libertarian", because scratching the surface of any of them reveals most of them are right wing authoritarians who adopt libertarian language disingenuously and many of the rest are just liberals who don't like the label.
06-19-2017 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Yeah that study is completely unsurprising for anyone who had a conversation with any "libertarian", because scratching the surface of any of them reveals most of them are right wing authoritarians who adopt libertarian language disingenuously and many of the rest are just liberals who don't like the label.
Yeah, bobman and daca,

Which social programs do you want cut? Environmental protections? Are financial regulations strangling Wall St.?
06-19-2017 , 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Yeah that study is completely unsurprising for anyone who had a conversation with any "libertarian", because scratching the surface of any of them reveals most of them are right wing authoritarians who adopt libertarian language disingenuously and many of the rest are just liberals who don't like the label.
As well as just straight up right wing authoritarians who use libertarian language as a cultural touchstone, there's the cohort of Republicans who smoke weed.

"Libertarians" who vote Democrat are basically just liberals trying to make it clear they understand Econ 101. I was in that category for a while, then I realized that instead of calling myself a libertarian and then listing 56,223 exceptions, I could just call myself a liberal and then explain that I'm aware of the virtues of the free market as a wealth generation tool.
06-19-2017 , 10:09 PM
I'm fine with being called a liberal. I really hate when people assume that means I'm a Democrat.
06-19-2017 , 10:09 PM
Not many other options.
06-19-2017 , 10:19 PM
Voting for the tallest midget doesn't make me one of them.
06-19-2017 , 10:21 PM
If people haven't seen it before, the Pew survey of "libertarian" beliefs from 2014 is instructive. They surveyed Americans who self identified as libertarian and could explain basically what the term meant. Among the findings:

- 46% agreed that "corporations make too much profit"
- 42% thought police should be able to stop and search "all who look like crime suspects"
- 26% thought homosexuality should be "discouraged"
- 33% thought marijuana should be illegal
06-19-2017 , 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
I'm fine with being called a liberal. I really hate when people assume that means I'm a Democrat.
We didn't used to use 'liberal' at all over here, or if we did, it meant something a bit different and wasn't really current as an umbrella political term. We've more or less fully imported it now, though.
06-19-2017 , 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Yeah, bobman and daca,

Which social programs do you want cut? Environmental protections? Are financial regulations strangling Wall St.?
I want a consumption tax!

EDIT: Oh yeah, zero minimum wage too. Abolish green energy subsidies in favor of carbon tax. Weaken the FDA!

Last edited by bobman0330; 06-19-2017 at 10:49 PM.
06-19-2017 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Yeah that study is completely unsurprising for anyone who had a conversation with any "libertarian", because scratching the surface of any of them reveals most of them are right wing authoritarians who adopt libertarian language disingenuously and many of the rest are just liberals who don't like the label.
Actually, I think you have the causation backwards. People's views are malleable. They take cues on what they should believe from who they want to associate themselves with politically. The people who were libertarians five years ago probably genuinely believed libertarian-type stuff, but when libertarianism collapsed as a political force, they became right-wing authoritarians or doctrinaire liberals who console themselves with once having heeded Econ 101. I mean, look at pvn... dude used to be handing out LvMI pamphlets about mean old Abe Lincoln picking on the South for some unjustified reason (probably crony capitalism), and now he's reinvented himself as a plain vanilla Democrat pining for the days of FDR and Truman. I'm also ~90% sure that adios used to be a pro-immigration business conservative type and has reinvented himself as a slightly demure Trumpian racist.
06-19-2017 , 10:51 PM
Some of the libertarian collapse turning into Trumpism (whatever that is) just has to do with distaste for the establishment/donor class.

Thomas Massey the freedom caucus guy touched on this as he saw Trump win the primaries and was wondering "WTF?"

"I went to Iowa twice and came back with [Ron Paul]. I was with him at every event for the last three days in Iowa," Massie said. "From what I observed, not just in Iowa but also in Kentucky, up close with individuals, was that the people that voted for me in Kentucky, and the people who had voted for Rand Paul in Iowa several years before, were now voting for Trump. In fact, the people that voted for Rand in a primary in Kentucky were preferring Trump."

"All this time," Massie explained, "I thought they were voting for libertarian Republicans. But after some soul searching I realized when they voted for Rand and Ron and me in these primaries, they weren't voting for libertarian ideas — they were voting for the craziest son of a ***** in the race. And Donald Trump won best in class, as we had up until he came along."


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/re...rticle/2617438

      
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