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Juno is a top notch neutrino observatory (LC Thread) Juno is a top notch neutrino observatory (LC Thread)

06-14-2017 , 06:22 PM
Cigarette smoking is a predominantly lower class habit.
06-14-2017 , 06:30 PM
The worst thing about a bus trip iir is stopping every hour at a Mcdonald's.
06-14-2017 , 06:33 PM
https://twitter.com/DanEggenWPost/st...92737295142912

Found the guy who filmed the iconic dumpster fire, the symbol of our age.
06-14-2017 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
The worst thing about a bus trip iir is stopping every hour at a Mcdonald's.
I had a bus (Greyhound) break down just a few minutes after we had left Louisville. Ending spending all day and the Louisville bus station (heard gunshots twice) and spent the night at the one in Cleveland.
06-14-2017 , 06:55 PM
A Resolution Condemning White Supremacy Causes Chaos at the Southern Baptist Convention


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...remacy/530244/
06-14-2017 , 07:05 PM
"It's not that we didn't like the resolution. We didn't like the wording of the resolution."

LOL since a resolution is nothing but wording I guess they didn't like it?
06-14-2017 , 08:08 PM
Fox News Drops ‘Fair and Balanced’ Motto

www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/business/media/fox-news-fair-and-balanced.html

Lede:

Quote:
Fox News is “Fair and Balanced” no more.

lol wp
06-14-2017 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
A Resolution Condemning White Supremacy Causes Chaos at the Southern Baptist Convention


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...remacy/530244/
A bit unfair of a headline and article. You have to read all the way to find that they nearly unanimously passed a condemnation nearly as quickly as possible that was slightly different but was satisfactory to the author (a black pastor) of the original resolution and the only chaos mentioned was the uproar by both white and black members about how important it was to pass the resolution.

They were anti-white supremacy enough that Richard Spencer called them cucks.
06-14-2017 , 10:31 PM
So why are the Saudis so pissed off at Qatar?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...112356122.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...112143166.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...141857685.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/news/...140542256.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/news/...080752822.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...142346567.html

Quote:
Al Jazeera
Logo of the Al Jazeera network
Type Satellite television network
Country Qatar
Availability Worldwide
Owner Al Jazeera Media Network
Key people
Sheikh Hamad bin Thamer Al Thani, Chairman
Yasser Abu Hilala, Director General[1]
06-15-2017 , 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
A bit unfair of a headline and article. You have to read all the way to find that they nearly unanimously passed a condemnation nearly as quickly as possible that was slightly different but was satisfactory to the author (a black pastor) of the original resolution and the only chaos mentioned was the uproar by both white and black members about how important it was to pass the resolution.

They were anti-white supremacy enough that Richard Spencer called them cucks.
If you look around on Twitter, you can see the battle here is real enough. I find it interesting because I think it's a microcosm of larger social, economic forces.

So: predominantly white Southern Baptists churches are shedding membership, number of baptisms are down, church attendance is down, etc.; the number of churches with mostly minority membership is the only segment of the Southern Baptism that's growing. Leadership is very aware of this and it's exerting a sort of pressure that was probably unimaginable 20 years ago let alone 50 years ago when the Southern Baptist church was like front and center white resistance to Civil Rights. And for sure, no doubt, tons of members and surely some leadership are still overt or unreformed white supremacists. But a lot of the leadership recognizes that sands are moving underneath them and their future necessarily involves black members and they can't afford to alienate them.

One of the potentially very interesting facets of modern American life is that while the Christian label and the evangelical label remains popular, church membership and participation is eroding. But it's eroding most precipitously among certain classes: poorer and middle class whites. Wealthier white participation in church in the South is basically steady; and if anything it's increasing among African Americans.

The intersection of politics is important from here: the people who are left still attending church and participating are not as strong of Trump supporters as the irregular or non-participants. The people still attending mainline religious services are on the whole better educated and wealthier.

In a real sense then church has become gentrified. It's obviously a little bit of an intentionally provocative point but the Southern Baptist church of all ****ing places is basically not much different from the social forces of segregation and social separation effecting all of America; not much different from a story about modern urbanization: mainstream church denominations are becoming wealthier, better educated and allying themselves with aspirational racial minorities who are seeking to become part of the system and in a large sense are being welcomed; and at the same time, a certain class of people -- largely less educated, in more precarious economic situations -- are withdrawing and disengaging from the institution.

These events like these fights at this convention and that convention are ultimate just minor data points on the plot but the collective data points becoming stunning the way we see, time and again, the way our identity, our institutions, our behaviors right down to people worship is increasingly stratified and segregated along new lines. Church is supposed to be like the eternal bedrock of the south, forever and unchanging (I realize in reality this has never been quite true). But in many ways is quickly following along the lines of the rest of Americans institutions with the same forces effecting it that we see effecting our schools, our work, our political parties, our cities.

Back to Trump, then, the elephant in every room including apparently this Southern Baptist convention thing: I am perhaps bad at predicting the specifics of the future particularly in the near term but left unchecked, you can see how this all feels a little dangerous. I of course applaud the Southern Baptist leadership in some respects because while I am sure they remain horrid dip****s about gay rights and a whole panoply of other issues, their attempts to be explicit and reform against racism is to be applauded. But put glibly, without the Southern ****ing Baptist church behind them, the number of institutions and structures underlying and buttressing downtrodden and angry white America are becoming vanishingly few. They've got the Republican Party and a sprawling media complex but even Fox seems a little wayward on the whole. They do not have my pity nor my sympathy but as I said, the number of predictable structures like churches, or civic life, or school, or work, or unions or really anything that might govern their behavior and give them a social purpose besides stewing in piles of rage are slowly eroding over time. That might not end well, and Trump is perhaps something like the canary in the coal mine.
06-15-2017 , 04:03 AM
There are zero solutions on the horizon, too. Look at the demographics of any of these backwaters the populations are loaded with olds. Medicare and SS $ literally keeps these places afloat. The town I live in is struggling mightily with abandoned houses and a declining population. This will only accelerate as boomers die and there are no youngs able to buy their houses. If you think these people are angry now wait until their choices are move to the city or starve.
06-15-2017 , 04:09 AM
Yeah I agree. All the forces you mentioned are real and the situation is bleak, particularly the inability to maintain even inherited property.

Like I don't attend any organized religious service and am an atheist and generally care little for the fate of the church. But credit to Phone Booth, who I recall made this sort of point before like years ago, which I dismissed. But as Trump is the ultimate in hard lessons in many things, I see the wisdom of the point he was making: the great liberal cultural projects are perhaps really taking on too much too soon, much as it pains me to admit it, especially since it cedes so much ground to people who really don't ever want to change anything ever and want to bait-and-switch bargain for incremental changes and swap them out for no changes at all.

Obviously we walk hand in hand with the forces of global capital and small-l liberal economic forces that undermine unions, degrade public investment and aggrandize empty private solutions if they provide any solution at all in destroying these lives.

But I must concede with the Trumpening of America that the forces of increasing social, racial, gender equality AND globalization eating away what little econmic utility these people might provide AND the eroding influence of organized religion at the same time might be too potent a mix for people who simply can't accept racial egalitarianism or not being a bigot, who can't imagine or tolerate a world where white guys aren't on top, who can't or won't join the modern economy, who can't reintegrate into cities. These people are ****ing cornered, seemingly temperamentally barbaric and running out of places to turn. And the number of institutions willing to invest anything in their reformation and redemption, to be the great civilizing force in their lives is dwindling. Their wealth is fleeing along with the able bodies who might help rebuild it. Their churches emptying.

That ain't healthy for anyone -- those caught in the crucible of it or the bystanders.

Last edited by DVaut1; 06-15-2017 at 04:17 AM.
06-15-2017 , 04:31 AM
It's weird to me because what I've gleaned from the few Trumpkins I'm willing to engage on these subjects is that a YUUUUUGE part of his appeal was that he wasn't a holy roller, and his somewhat liberal media persona over the past several decades has them convinced he will govern much more liberally then what he actually will.

I had two of them trying to convince me that Trump would push for federally legal marijuana on the same day Jeff Sessions announced the DOJs intention to roll back Obama's reforms.
06-15-2017 , 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus
It's weird to me because what I've gleaned from the few Trumpkins I'm willing to engage on these subjects is that a YUUUUUGE part of his appeal was that he wasn't a holy roller, and his somewhat liberal media persona over the past several decades has them convinced he will govern much more liberally then what he actually will.

I had two of them trying to convince me that Trump would push for federally legal marijuana on the same day Jeff Sessions announced the DOJs intention to roll back Obama's reforms.
Yeah I think the image of Trump as a free-wheeling playboy libertine has convinced a bunch of pseudo-libertarian types that Trump is like them and will push a libertine version of conservatism, like basically walls to keep out Mexicans and coke and hookers for good old white boys. Two big problems with this:

1) Trump isn't really a playboy type, he just plays one on TV. He's a sex pest, but it seems like that's more about power and self-glorification, like most things in his life. Aside from that, he doesn't (as far as we know) drink or do drugs and by all accounts spends evenings eating KFC and candy on the couch and watching cable TV.

2) People tend to assume that if people want to be liberal in their own lives, they will support liberal laws. Like, if you're a weed smoker, obviously you want liberalized marijuana laws. This assumption frequently breaks down with hypocritical GOP Congress types, who want to outlaw gay sex while getting blown in toilet cubicles by male interns on the reg. But with Trump the assumption breaks down completely, and it's not hypocrisy. Trump does not think rules apply to him. He would be quite happy outlawing abortion but secretly getting one for a mistress, and it wouldn't be hypocrisy, because "abortion OK for Trump and associates but not for peasant types who might abuse their privileges" is sincerely what he thinks the rules should be.
06-15-2017 , 07:07 AM
Interesting stuff by Dvault. One thing I think is important is that laws/norms have not really kept pace with economic changes, except perhaps places like Cal. to an extent, and yet the GOP is still running on a hardline "no compromise-but-really-we're-so-exteme-we-have some-room-to-compromise" economic platform designed for 1980. Well, they finally got everybody on board with the agenda, and the world has up and changed on them, with the wealthy from 1980 having 5-10x. Now the GOP is just trying to ram square pegs into round holes and are in danger of being run over by a slow moving Zamboni but seem to be locked in.

I don't think the Bernie model is right, but something between it and Hillary is probably 35% of the solution, with healthcare maybe another 25%, and actual tax reform like 25%, but that's damn near impossible. I definitely think that few have come to terms with the financialization of the economy and the "it's just science" view of screwing everyone else, including employees, as much as possible. Mylan and other pharma firms are just obvious cases of what's being done everywhere. Another example would be CEO compensation, where the trees look fine by the forest exposes the rot and essentially ideological foundation (see https://www.theatlantic.com/business...m_source=atltw, very good new article from an insider's perspective). Same with antitrust law.
06-15-2017 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
A bit unfair of a headline and article. You have to read all the way to find that they nearly unanimously passed a condemnation nearly as quickly as possible that was slightly different but was satisfactory to the author (a black pastor) of the original resolution and the only chaos mentioned was the uproar by both white and black members about how important it was to pass the resolution.

They were anti-white supremacy enough that Richard Spencer called them cucks.
I read it as a bunch of white guys tried to kill it quietly in committee, but the persistent efforts of a couple black people pushed the issue into the public sphere and shamed them into passing something.
06-15-2017 , 07:27 AM
The resolution doesn't even begin to talk about how segregated the modern day Southern Baptist church actually is. Many of those white churches are directly supporting Trump or the Koch bros in various ways, either through their rhetoric, literature, or just straight up telling people to vote Trump. The church has really bought into the prosperity gospel stuff and that's what Trump represents. "If someone succeeds, that means God loved them."
06-15-2017 , 08:39 AM
idk if there's anything to be learned from my neck of the woods in western MA or if it's just a crazy outlier, but the politics tend to be the exact opposite of what you would expect from the demographics and economy. If you jump across the border to NY or CT you get predictable results, but things here are... different.

There are 4 counties in Western Mass. The most populated and urban is Hampden, home of the mid-sized city Springfield and lots of minorities. About half a million people live there. It went D in 2016 at 55%, below state average.

Directly north is Hampshire County, which is full of small college towns and working farms. There's only 160k people there, but unsurprisingly went hard D at 67% on account of all them college liberals.

Where things get weird is Franklin and Berkshire. At 70k and 130k, these are mostly rural, but not very religious areas. And outside of the tourist belt in southern Berkshire, the population centers in both counties are predominantly white, depopulated and economically wrecked factory towns full of junkies and despair. They both went D at 63% and 67%, above state average.

Why? I have no idea. Cool story bro, I guess. Just figured I'd throw it out there.
06-15-2017 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus
It's weird to me because what I've gleaned from the few Trumpkins I'm willing to engage on these subjects is that a YUUUUUGE part of his appeal was that he wasn't a holy roller, and his somewhat liberal media persona over the past several decades has them convinced he will govern much more liberally then what he actually will.

I had two of them trying to convince me that Trump would push for federally legal marijuana on the same day Jeff Sessions announced the DOJs intention to roll back Obama's reforms.
One of the big political trends of my lifetime has been the rise and fall of the religious right in the Republican Party. Used to be guys like Fallwell and Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed were significant powerbrokers in the party. Nowadays there's a big contingent of younger alt-right/libertarian dudebros who are solidly irreligious and often adore Sam Harris or Bill Mahr. For these guys, Trump is a refreshing break from the evangelical guys like W Bush or Reagan.
06-15-2017 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
The resolution doesn't even begin to talk about how segregated the modern day Southern Baptist church actually is. Many of those white churches are directly supporting Trump or the Koch bros in various ways, either through their rhetoric, literature, or just straight up telling people to vote Trump. The church has really bought into the prosperity gospel stuff and that's what Trump represents. "If someone succeeds, that means God loved them."
One Nation Under God: How corporate America invented Christian America. Kevin Kruse

Is a pretty good (little padded and repetitive) book on the prosperity gospel.
06-15-2017 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Yeah I agree. All the forces you mentioned are real and the situation is bleak, particularly the inability to maintain even inherited property.

Like I don't attend any organized religious service and am an atheist and generally care little for the fate of the church. But credit to Phone Booth, who I recall made this sort of point before like years ago, which I dismissed. But as Trump is the ultimate in hard lessons in many things, I see the wisdom of the point he was making: the great liberal cultural projects are perhaps really taking on too much too soon, much as it pains me to admit it, especially since it cedes so much ground to people who really don't ever want to change anything ever and want to bait-and-switch bargain for incremental changes and swap them out for no changes at all.

Obviously we walk hand in hand with the forces of global capital and small-l liberal economic forces that undermine unions, degrade public investment and aggrandize empty private solutions if they provide any solution at all in destroying these lives.

But I must concede with the Trumpening of America that the forces of increasing social, racial, gender equality AND globalization eating away what little econmic utility these people might provide AND the eroding influence of organized religion at the same time might be too potent a mix for people who simply can't accept racial egalitarianism or not being a bigot, who can't imagine or tolerate a world where white guys aren't on top, who can't or won't join the modern economy, who can't reintegrate into cities. These people are ****ing cornered, seemingly temperamentally barbaric and running out of places to turn. And the number of institutions willing to invest anything in their reformation and redemption, to be the great civilizing force in their lives is dwindling. Their wealth is fleeing along with the able bodies who might help rebuild it. Their churches emptying.

That ain't healthy for anyone -- those caught in the crucible of it or the bystanders.
The somewhat mysterious part of the equation is why exactly people who are living in decaying cities and rural areas don't go somewhere else where prospects are better. In a lot of ways, the more you think about it, the more bizarre it becomes. My grandfather grew up in Portugal and immigrated to the U.S. in the 30s because he thought there would be better prospects, despite not speaking much English and not having any idea of what he would do when he showed up. And despite having to leave his whole family behind with very limited means of communication. And despite having to take a freaking boat across the Atlantic.

Today, it's easier to learn about new places, it's easier to travel, and it's easier to communicate across long distances, but people move less. The people who are trapped in Youngstown or Detroit are largely the descendants of people who moved to Youngstown or Detroit a few generations ago for the economic opportunity! Why won't anyone move again?

It's just barely conceivable that the whole thing is down to anti-growth/anti-affordability policies in all the major markets that are growing. You implied in your post that a lot of these left-behind rural folks are economically useless, but why not go repair cars for rich software coders in Silicon Valley? Why not shine shoes for hedge fund magnates? One explanation is they don't really want the job, but another, obviously true explanation is that there's no way for some poor dude in Youngstown to rent a studio in SF for $3k a month, even if he could make $30k a year as a mechanic.

There is a story you can tell, which may be true or may not, where the zoning/housing-finance complex that was originally created to keep blacks out of white neighborhoods has been repurposed to impose a kind of de facto apartheid on non-elites in flyover country and keep them out of the cities with all the opportunities. Maybe that's a bunch of BS, but you have to at least wonder why economically "useless" people aren't embracing migration as a solution like so many people have before them, especially given that it's an easier answer than ever.
06-15-2017 , 10:17 AM
Dvault,

That's all true for a segment of the population sure, but the rant pendulum also has to swing back to Trump voters actually having money. There's a lot of pretending (fooling themselves perhaps) to be in a lower class by people who drive their $50k pickups to a NASCAR race.
06-15-2017 , 10:22 AM
Bobman,

Maybe it's more apparent here in LA than most places, but there have been massive migrations in the US. Other parts of the country to here/rural to suburban/rural to urban/urban to suburban/etc. That's not just prior generations. In California coming from another state is close to the rule, not the exception. Go to Dodger stadium when the Reds or Tigers come to town and you'll see how many people from the rustbelt did move.

Last edited by microbet; 06-15-2017 at 10:32 AM.
06-15-2017 , 10:25 AM
Lots of people do leave; the ones that stay are by and large the dumbest, most racist, most economically hopeless. Hence the opiate **** and voting Trump.
06-15-2017 , 10:28 AM
My feeling is that a lot of these people wouldn't want to live in San Francisco any more than you or I would want to live in rural Alabama. They will tell you it's because of the higher cost of living but I really think it's more for cultural reasons.

      
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