The moral ordering of collective punishment vs physical risk is actually very clear. Innocent Palestinian individuals shouldn't be imprisoned because of a general threat to Israelis any more than random French people should be imprisoned because French people are now also a threat to Jews.

It's not like it comes up every day or people say it to your face. I'm not obviously Jewish (at least not to non-Jews) and have worked in business with a lot of Israelis (there are a lot doing solar in LA) and I've run into "I don't know about your partner" kind of stuff more than a few times.

I just attribute it to hating foreigners and that Americans, in general, are extremely stupid. Judging by the last 9 months, I would bet my money on China winning easily.

Maybe I'm missing some antisemtism that is well covered in stupidity.

It's indisputable Hamas and other terrorist organizations used the Erez crossing to attack Israel and Israel originally intended Erez crossing to be an economic link that could help Palestine become a stable and viable state.

It is also indisputable Hamas actively tried to shut the crossing down with a series of attacks. There can be no doubt Hamas did not like Israeli-Palestinean cooperation that was happening in the Erez industrial zone and Palestineans commuting to work in Israel. They needed war and they forced Israel to fight one.

The best thing for Israel to do is probably to just live with the terrorist attacks and win Palestinean hearts and minds through sacrifice. But that's not politically viable and it's not demanded by international law.

How about a long, (10 yrs, $10 billion or something) massive infrastructure plan for Gaza, promised by the US? Make it contingent on removing Hamas from power. It can be closely monitored to ensure funding or resources don't go to rockets or tunnels or Hamas officials, but schools, hospitals, roads, etc. Rebuild the path to the West Bank. Can that be a feasible proposal? Or perhaps a part of another attempt at peace talks? Israel would gladly unblock Gaza's sea border for trade and not destroy any airport if their safety could be ensured somehow by the US, no? Could eventually lead to Egypt easing restrictions on their borders and perhaps even Israel.

American and Israeli troops could station along the path between the West Bank and Gaza to ensure its use as intended, and perhaps at each border including the sea. Is any of this possible, or some variation?

There is zero probability Hamas accepts that.

This is correct. Hamas leadership is getting too rich off the current situation.

That would be a part of my plan but Hamas can't be simply gotten rid of and they won't agree.

Even if they did agree why should the US pay for all of it and put its' troops at risk? Why not have more countries help pay and contribute troops?

Here's my quick version plan which is contingent on Hamas being out of power and gone forever:

Raise $20 billion from the U.S./Western Europe. Spread over 10 years it isn't much. I need the money for infrastructure and a basic income bec I'm going to eliminate a lot of jobs in the beginning.

Fire the entire government and replace it w/ secular/liberal American Jews. You heard that right. Secular/liberal American Jews who will train their replacements from the Gazans that can do the job and will take their place as quickly as possible.

Ask Egypt and Jordan to supply a police force made up of carefully screened volunteers and those, in turn, to be replaced by Gazans asap.

Deal w/ corruption the Chinese way. I will personally answer/accept responsibility to the God who may or not be there for that one.

Solicit applications to build two casino resorts and w/e touristy things that there's a market for.

After that, if the Gazan's are truly willing, things will take care of themselves. Israel will let the Gazans work in Israel again, both Israelis and Egyptians will keep the casinos packed, the Gulf Arabs won't have to travel to have a drink and break all of the rest of the rules and it'd be like Beirut of days gone by a veritable 'Monaco' of the Middle East.

The people of Gaza don't know what they could have. Their leaders get theirs and the commoner gets nothing. The entire thing is a dirty, rotten shame all in the name of pride and revenge in a pot kept boiling w/ lunatics at the heat valve.

What a waste.

Howard the biggest shame of them all is the percentage of the world that believes that Israel wouldn't let Palestinians have all manner of opportunity throughout the land of Israel if the violence stopped. If you've talked to the Ba hai's of Israel, or the Christians, you get a sense of what could have been. I've never seen or heard a Ba hai person in Israel claim to be second class or suffering from apartheid. They got the same arrangement as everyone else in the 40's and beyond.

People are ready for change. In exchange for peace I think the lengths to which Israel would go to integrate the Palestinians into the country would be dramatic. But it has to start with the total rejection of the terror campaigns.

They do not believe us. They won't, can't and are utterly stupefied that we would even suggest such a thing. To those of you who don't believe us I want to tell you a secret: NOBODY cares more about the plight of the Palestinians than secular, liberal American Jews. NOBODY!

Most of the Jews I know are quite keen on Palestinian success, but I've heard really bad stuff as well.

In the summer of 1986 (right after my 1st year in college) I worked at an engineering office which aside from me was entirely Israelis and Palestinians. There was more routine violence in Israel those days and politically the Palistinians and Israelis had their differences (they would all talk to me - the kid), but there was a common ground that I think is gone. I have basically heard Israelis now say that the Arabs should all be driven out, every last one. I don't think that sentiment could have been as prevalent before the literal and figurative walls were so established.

If someone told me that I could end this situation and create lasting peace there, and it would cost me and people like me $20,000 and a year of my hard work donated, I'd sign faster than you could say apartheid. I doubt many of my friends would be different. I'll ask them...

I don't doubt it. There are people on both sides of the fences who have simply lost too much to ever come back from. They're lost to the peace process now. It's mostly the new generations we have to count on, and we've already succeeded at losing this one. I also don't doubt that both sides have their share of cowards and angry people. I don't see why Israelis would be immune to that.

Howard I have to sleep on your idea. I like a lot of it.

Ayatollah Khameni was kind enough to tweet this on behalf of Iran yesterday. Just so we can agree there is no doubt:

Our stance against Israel is the same stance we have always taken. #Israel is a malignant cancerous tumor in the West Asian region that has to be removed and eradicated: it is possible and it will happen. 7/31/91#GreatReturnMarch

That, is your problem.

Btw that his tweet is still up on twitter a 2 days later proves many points I've been trying to make...You tell me if you could say that about a black nation. I'll wait.

The funny thing is Iran probably doesn't even want Israel removed. Their interest lies in keeping Israel busy and making it difficult for Arab nations to publicly ally with Israel although it's an open secret that Arab nations are already treating Israel as "enemy of my enemy" at least.

I doubt Iran has any interest in an unified Sunni (or secular) Palestine.

Ayatollah Khamenei controls a business empire worth ~$95 billion. That seems a lot for a humble servant of God.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...port-says.html

This place is nuts.

We've just seen Israel slaughter I don't know how many people and wound a few thousand more for protesting, yet all the chat is of Palestinian violence and how they should reject it before getting any nice things.

C'mon to **** lads.

I said make it contingent on removing Hamas from power, but I guess that doesn't make sense when Hamas is actually in power bc they obv would not agree.

The primary key seems to be getting them out of power or somehow reducing or eliminating the corruption. What are any possible solutions to their removal of power? Anything militarily? Could the US and/or others influence Gaza's next election in some perversely moral effort to transition power to anybody but Hamas?

I don't really have any argument against that thought, as the most effective plan may not be possible without non US actors bearing some or much of the burden.

But doesn't the US bear a mega****ton of moral responsibility in bringing the region to peace?

I wonder if President Trump would get on board Howard Beale's plan provided it slaps his name on the casinos?

The Israeli Embassy reply to the Ayatollah is stuff of legends:

It is mildly interesting, but not at all surprising, that a partisan of Israel would make that kind of racist comment. There is no 'black nation' that was established by force on other people's land within living memory.

Khamenei is merely an idiot engaged in the usual practice of tyrannical rulers, that is pointing at an external enemy to divert attention from the ruler's own moral bankruptcy. On the other hand, Netanyahu likes pointing at Iran for the exact same reason.

Well, most posters are American, and Americans elected Trump, so, y'know.

It's 120 since 30 March. The IDF have only supplied any rationale for 11 of those killings, and in 3 of those 11 cases it still wasn't lawful. And they're now lying about the killing of nurse Rajan al-Najjar and claiming it was just a stray shot, which isn't actually possible under IDF rules of engagement, but since the IDF are always allowed to investigate themselves and declare themselves OK, which to put it mildly is not best practice... well, that's how they get away with murder. They've since killed another member of Rajan's family as well.

It's not that the comment was made. it's that it was not taken down by twitter...