I prefer to read this thread btw especially when it's about stuff rather than each other.

More than pissed off flounce can carry on here implying I'm all sorts of terrible.

So Israel has like a million Arab Muslim citizens. They vote. What do they want? What are there parties like?

Also, how segregated are the populations? Not just housing, but work, daily life?

The situation is slightly changed recently,but historicly they had 3 popular ideologies
Hadash lefty liberal-"communist" historically speaking party,Balad arab nationalist party and Islamists. Because recently Israel increased election threshold they ran as one party ,but vote differently in the parliament.
Their goals run the whole spectrum from turning Israel in non-national liberal state to establishing Sharia law.
The populations are pretty segregated living wise, the situation is a little better in academic environment.

But Miss Israel is... just kidding.

But TAU just made Egyptian Haisam Hassanein their valedictorian. Check out this speech.

I see Hasbrah is outsourcing. Just kidding cool video saw it today.

Glad you like it, it cost me a million dollars to post that

You said they they would simply prefer the jews not exist and, in the same sentence, that they want an arab muslim controlled state. Does calling for a secular democracy where jews and muslims are treated equally under the law REALLY sound like this?

Again, if you want to find examples of anti-semitism, of hatred where the other person wants your side to not exist, you are going to have to work harder than linking to a call for a secular democratic state with equal rights. Maybe you are right, maybe they really are only calling for this because of how incredibly hateful and evil they are and their secret plan with the secular democratic state with equal rights is...to...uh....switch to something that isn't this. But then you should quote THOSE things, the things that actually are anti-semitic, that actually are hateful, that actually show they want the jews not to exist. Because when you link to a call for a secular democratic state with equal rights and try to frame this as "not genocide, just don't want them to exist" you are doing yourself a disservice. Amazing.

I ignored your second paragraph because I laughed too hard at your clumsy reframing of the debate.

The issue started when you asserted that most BDSers you know are two-staters. When I laughed at that, you demanded proof that BDS would stop if the occupation ended. I provided you their own manifesto as leadership's words insisting they would not.

Not sure what more you need.

Instead of "reframing" I'm just going to quote the start of it. Completely coincidentally, the start is exactly the framing I have been using.
Perhaps I am crazy, but when I read "prefer jews not exist, but in practice a muslim controlled state in all of israel" I do NOT think of a secular democratic state with equal rights. Is that what you meant? That most BDSers want a secular democratic state with equal rights? Because that is what the guy you linked to wants. Truly bizarre phraseology if true. Wanting equal rights for jews and muslims is a secret clue to their not wanting jews to exist?

Of course, pointing out how this one particular person believes in a one state solution - again, a secular democratic state with equal rights - doesn't contradict my claim that most BDSers I know are two staters. Indeed, even in the manifesto you quoted it explicitly talks about 1967 lines, NOT a single state. Some BDSers are going to support a two state solution and some a one state, just as nonBDSers also split like this.

Whatever you might want to imply with your phraseology, you still haven't actually identified a criticism. You have quoted some guy who wants a secular demcoratic state with equal rights. I might disagree with this person, but is this supposed to be used as evidence of horrible he is, or how horrible BDS is? Most importantly, why on earth did you so selectively quote this guy so as to eliminate the call for the secular democratic state with equal rights from his quote?

This thread has become dominated by one person's persecution complex.

What? K. lol.

That defeats the purpose. The purpose of responding to you is to show that even a good person, like you Ukeypie, can be so utterly naive and gullible to the words of awful people masquerading as peace activists / humanitarians , that you cannot see the obvious intent and meaning behind their words and actions, and while you proclaim to be for equal rights or... whatever it is you purport to believe in and want to advance in the world, and in this thread, and in the middle east- you seem to not be able to differentiate between reality and your own personal fantasies for what you'd like to happen,

Yeah, it is ... to... uh... switch to something that isn't this. Do you really believe they would flood Israel with millions of people, taught since birth that Israel (and Jews as a whole) committed X, Y and Z crimes against them, that they "violated Al-Aqsa!" , that they "commit genocide" and all that other blah blah blah, and that suddenly once they have all the power- they would simply share it and give Jews equal rights and status in a future 1-state solution?

You've got to be kidding me. You can't be this naive. You just can't. Have you done Ayahausca lately?

You can't possibly believe this would happen

and no matter how many times you repeat "secular democracy with equal rights for all", thats just not how it will be, in reality, despite your constant repeating of your new favorite mantra. This is like when Hamas or Hezbollah hosts a Jew or two and people go "See! See they can tolerate Jews just fine! Its just Zioooonnissstttsssss they hate!".

Laughably disconnected from reality, the Ukeniverse must be a nice place where no one ever says something they don't mean, where no one manipulates to get their way. I envy the world inside your head, Uke.

Would love to see the methodology behind the study, obvious palestinians will embrace an option of "Would you accept a 2-state solution as a prelude to retaking all of our Arab land back?". The stages plan, it's a thing.



This guy, Martymc1, goes to the "Muslims vs Gays" thread and makes it his business to complain about Israel / Jews in the Muslim vs Gays thread, but has "no idea tho" why he might be expected to stop in and condemn anti-Jewish bigotry here , in the I/P thread.

Marty who loves to pop in on the regular however, to let us know what warmongers we are, and how evil and oppressive Israel is,

Marty who in yet another thread says "Its just a bunch of Jews disagreeing with me here" ,

wants to now pretend he had no time or reason to condemn bigotry against Jews,

SHOCKING. Why would a guy who complains about Israel and Jews constantly feel no need to condemn other's bigotry against Jews... I dunno, I dunno I can't seem to draw the connection... someone help me out here

Have there been any examples as of late, showing that maybe the "complex" is not a complex, but a reality faced by Jews? Maybe some sieges of synagogues, or marches suggesting "Jews to the ovens" , or discrimination against Jewish musicians - of course under the guise of peace and unity.

It's always going to be about perception. Every side at loggerheads with another side feels justified in their feelings. Maybe Arabs are also justified in feeling persecuted both historically and recently? Maybe most social/religious/ethnic groups can be too?

I'm not suggesting that Jews haven't suffered disproportionately, but that this victim mentality is one of the causes of the problem, not a source of the solution.

Its awful that there is no place in the world for Arabs to seek refuge from persecution.

Oh wait, there's the 22 Arab Muslim countries or about 99.5% of the Middle East that isnt Israel. Actually I guess we can subtract Iran from that %. I think you understand my point though?

Funny enough, in all those countries where Arab Muslims dominate, every other religious and ethnic minority suffers. Certainly there are disparities - i'd much rather be a Jew or Christian in Morocco than in Saudi Arabia or under ISIS, but again- I hope you follow the obvious point here.

More obvious should be that the real problem is that you fail to understand why Jews (or an individual here, as you put it) have a "persecution complex".

Its because of... ya know, the persecution.

Edit: The problem people have with Israel is that they are refusing to be victims, or have a victim mentality. It is instead that people would prefer Jews be victims, and put their lives and safety at the whims of fantasy-land inhabitants like Uke who think there will magically be a flood of Arab Muslims into Israel who will take over power and yet provide a "secular democratic state with equal rights for all", worse than the fantasy-land inhabitants are those who understand the obvious- that this situation will not arise in the event of a destruction of Israel (through military or other means) and that the result will instead be much, much bloodier. I don't know if thats you, and I fully believe that's not Uke. I do wonder about other's who post here, and obviously conclusions have been fairly drawn on countless people who used to post here and are now banned- posters who may or may not have taken the time to pretend they care about peace, but who later exposed themselves as racist POS.

Double edit: I'd love to hear your opinion / factoids on this "historical" and recent persecution though, please do tell us about it, and when you're done we can compare and contrast with historical and recent persecution of other groups - by Arabs , or under Arab regimes. Should make for a good case study for why it's ridiculous to even try and draw a parallel between persecution of Jews and persecution of Arabs (or Muslims). Give me a good laugh, start with "well, there were the Crusades!"

Ironically, no - it's that Jews decided they will no longer be victims, that is one of the causes of the problem.

Don't confuse being hated with being victimized.

Please reread this post, and pay attention to what exactly I quote of yours and how I responded to each specific quote.

You are way off base.

NCFlounce: There are plenty of places in the world for Jews to seek refuge from persecution. Many came here to the UK during the pogroms for example, as I'm sure you're aware, and others to America, so your point makes no sense.

At a school where 90% of kids are being bullied, the person being bullied the most really needs to get over their persecution complex.

#TeamPalestine

So no change here then, what a waste of keystrokes.

Even if you want to imagine the OP never happened, that the original comments about not wanting jews to exist never happened, even if we pretend that a secular democratic state with equal rights for all is of course what you meant by a Muslim controlled state, even if we just pretend this entire start to the conversation was me making up a framing, so what? What have you demonstrated? You've quoted from a guy who wants a secular democratic state with equal rights for all. You or I might disagree with him, but there is nothing fundamentally disgusting about such a view. Telling me that some BDSer supports a one state solution, so what? Of course, since you cut out that but in your highly selective quoting perhaps you wanted to cast his view as something other than wanting a secular democratic state with equal rights. If you are wanting to tarnish them as antisemitic or whatever else it is you think you are doing, you are going to have to find other quotes.

Unless your singular point was to say that my comment about most BDSers I know being two staters is "wrong" by linking to someone who is a one stater? In which case just lol.

What. I appreciated your condemnation, genuinely. But you said you don't care about changing our opinions so I didn't bother posting about my feelings.

I also posted that the guy denies that the Jewish people exist. So, uh, yeah.

BDSers - as far as the ideology goes - do not want a two state solution, the do not believe the Jewish people have a right to nation-hood and self-determination in their homeland, except in the context of an Arab dominated state.

I should have just addressed the last post to flounce, who handily ignored my condemnation that he called for only to spout more ****e instead.

No worry, the homeland of the Jewish people is Israel, so I or any other Jew won't have to depend on an Englishman, or, lets say, and Irishman, to shelter me or put his life on the line (and maybe in doing so deprive his own wife & children of their husband & father) to protect me. How about a rational trade: You support the right of Jews to live in peace and self-determination in their homeland, and I won't expect you to die or risk death to protect my life. I think that's fair

Or do you think maybe I should go live in Valencia, Spain, a safe place for a Jew to "seek refuge" , no doubt? Or ... whats that s****y little town in spain called, Mata Judeos, "Kill Jews" or whatever? Another lovely example of places where I can "seek refuge".

So glad Jalfrezi is here to tell me I can seek refuge in so many places, wonderful news!


Ignore your condemnation? You showed up only after your absence was pointed out, then you claimed you didn't even understand why it might do some good for you to stand up to bigotry here "tho", considering you whine about Jews and Israel everywhere else you can.

What do you think your condemnation is worth?

Who do you think you're fooling?

Save your crocodile tears, I won't be "seeking refuge" in Ireland or asking you to shed blood to save me as per Jalfrezi-logic, ever. And i'm sure you wouldn't anyway, should I be forced to expect you to - because I have a homeland, and I am free from persecution there. Would be a great favor to me and every other Jew if you could stop working to demonize that place and delegitmize my right to live there in peace, K? Thanks


Jalfrezi please educate us on this historical and current persecution of Arabs i'm very curious to learn, teach us

Edit: Keed once got educated here in this thread, that Jews have it much worse as far as harassment, vandalism, and other hate-based attacks in America, compared to Muslims. I wonder how he would have reacted if someone suggested they could just go seek refuge in the UK instead.

Its really sick when someone compares genocidal campaigns to being "bullied" on the school yard. Uke, i'm sure you find it just monstrous, monstrous, monstrous!

A little late, but, FYP.

Seriously how do you write anything like this with a straight face, regarding Jews, after complaining about so-called persecution of Arabs?

22 Arab states, and you didn't stop to think maybe they could "seek refuge" in the arms of their own Arab Muslim brethren?

Or maybe its just that you know how poorly Arabs are treated in their fellow Arab countries, the treatment on Syrian refugees in Jordan and Lebanon has been quite disturbing,

and obviously Palestinians are treated ... well, do you know how they're treated? Have you ever taken the time to research the laws and discrimination Palestinians face in those 22 other countries where they should be welcome?

Hint: They treat them worse than Israel does


Just so much lol in this thread. Jews should be expected to seek refuge in countries they have no connection to, but Arabs can't be expected to seek refuge in other Arab countries. Fantastic

Ya, if I were you I would abandon the first quote and refocus on the second as well because you sure were not getting anywhere by selectively quoting from a call for a secular democratic state with equal rights for everyone. As for the second, as I said at the beginning I don't really know the author's paraphrases are really talking about...some resolutions specifically talking about colonization perhaps, or the distinction between occupier and occupied? I don't know. Let's just assume it means the most hateful, anti-semitic thing you can imagine...or at least....whatever that means in the context of someone calling for a secular democratic state with equal rights. So what? How are we back to "here is an example of someone being anti-semitic" again? So what?

We can disagree - I disagree - with right of return, a one state solution, and using boycotts, divestment and sanctions to pressure Israel on this file. But not one of those three is anti-semitic. Many supporters of any or all of those three are motivated not out of hatred for jews, but out of a sense that they are the best option to alleviate a very real suffering. Undoubtably you can find many (presumably much clearer than this guy) examples of people that support those things and actually are anti-semitic. But implying that BDSers might also want a right of return or also want a one state solution isn't secret proof of their anti-semitism. And frankly, "we want a secular democratic state with equal rights which has the consequences of a muslim majority" is just massively different rhetoric from an "arab controlled state" - especially when you tag that on the end of a sentence claiming they don't even want jews to exist!