Come on dude, you know how many children Israel killed in Cast Lead and you know how harmful the blockade is to the health of over a million people (40% of whom are children). They are living in complete poverty well below international standards of living. The only reason Hamas is even in power is because of the blockade. You know Israel left cluster bombs in houses in southern Lebanon after the 2006 war.

I'm not in any way excusing Hamas firing rockets at civilians and children, obviously that is unacceptable under any circumstances, to be clear, just saying that it goes both ways and you can't just ignore that or wish it wasn't true.

I think a lot of times you go way too far to defend Israel in these threads because you feel you have to; you know you can just ignore people if they are being really absurd.

The Israel leading Government and higher ups (not the israeli people) continue to create propaganda and lies that Iran is helping terrorists attack Israel, and that Hezbollah is automatically responsible for that recent bus bombing..... Yet There is no direct evidence of Hezbollahs involvement what so ever, all of it is hear say.

Israels ace in the hole vs Iran is that Iran is trying to nuke or would nuke Israel if capable. The fact is Iran wants to build nukes to defend itself agiasnt Israels nuclear arsenal 2nd only to the USA. Israel's military power is a unstoppable force. Even if Iran developed ONE nuke, in lay mans terms Irans nukes would be nowhere near the capability of Israels military super power.

The fact the the USA does not open trade with Iran and does open trade with Israel is mind boggling,

Another mind boggling fact is that 124 of the United Nations 193 member states have announced their recognition of Palestine as an independent state. Yes this includes the West Bank and The Gaza Strip. This number equals 5.1 billion people or roughly 75% of the world population
http://www.maannews.net/eng/viewdetails.aspx?id=416575

during the Republican primaries CNN censored a 10 year American Iraqi war veteran right after he said (he also endorsed Ron Paul) "Israel" prior to that saying "defend itself against Iran" and that the USA "does not need to start a war with Iran"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvzeo...eature=related





Israel is fully capable of defending itself, by itself. And with no assistance from the USA. After all we do not assist Palestine , or Iran for that matter, Mitt Romney wont even mention Palestine during his trip to Israel

Is it? Despite the heart-wrenching stories in the major news services, they are just that - stories. fiction.

now, nobody is saying that there isn't poverty in gaza. but life expectancy in gaza is at least within the world average and longer than such developed countries as Malaysia, Turkey, Romania, Honduras, and Russia.

Here's the picture of the Gazan parliament suffering blackouts.


Notice the windows. There's daylight outside! Its staged, like most of the "suffering".

Pictures of luxury hotels, fully stocked grocery stores, and public celebrations are widely available on the internet.

Additionally, Egypt has imposed the same blockade on Gaza for even longer than Israel has - i.e. since the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza.

So the real question is whether the harm to Gazan children is significant, and whether it has resulted from Israel's blockade, or the combined effects of Hamas' mismanagement and totalitarian control of resources.

In any event, Israel has quit Gaza. There is simply no benefit to Israel for any blockade if the rockets were to stop. The rockets do nothing at all but increase israeli sanctions and harm israeli civilians. They began long before the blockade started. Why haven't they stopped?

the answer is that conflict strengthens extremists. and hamas is extremist, and they know it. so, as long as the rockets fall, the blockade will stay. and as long as the story of the blockade stays in the news, hamas has power, as you recognize.

what about local standards of living compared to before hamas took power? that's the real question. if you compare gazans to americans you're probably going to find a lot of issues.

[QUOTE=Gamblor;34137007]Is it? Despite the heart-wrenching stories in the major news services, they are just that - stories. fiction.

now, nobody is saying that there isn't poverty in gaza. but life expectancy in gaza is at least within the world average and longer than such developed countries as Malaysia, Turkey, Romania, Honduras, and Russia.

Here's the picture of the Gazan parliament suffering blackouts.


Are you sure you did not make up this title of "blackouts"??. Maybe those people are holding some sort of ceremony for dead palestinian's? They could be blocking the windows so the occupying Israel military won't be able to see what there doing from the outside

This is just speculation by me, but no more speculation then you Gamblor for saying the photo is staged.

It's hard to isolate the effect Hamas has had on Gaza since they gained power because of so many other factors in play. But, I don't know how you can say people in Gaza are completely fine just because you've seen pictures of fully stocked supermarkets. I mean, wtf?

Here's some data:

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ec...w-poverty-line

should be the "gamblor is mad" thread

Also, for comparison's sake, the West Bank is at 46% on both lists. That's obviously a significant difference from Gaza and it is primarily due to Israel allowing limited trade in and out of the West Bank while allowing 0 in and out of Gaza.

I must be confused about this picture. How does the fact that there is daylight outside imply the power is not out? There must be some other context here.

Also it's pretty common culturally for the windows to be covered because of privacy concerns for the women of the household and that translates to most windows being covered most places (IME).

Not saying that's why they are here, just offering an alternate explanation.

Don't spit on me bro

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...-them-1.137099

Whether or not any of the alternative explanations are true, no less an authority than Time Magazine (via Reuters) is pushing the lie that its due to blackouts and directly Israel's fault:

http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...522984,00.html

So if Reuters publishes it, you know hundreds of major daily newspapers are publishing it. Its, of course, bogus how far you're reaching to justify your preferred narrative that it's all Israel's fault.

Now, why is there blackouts?

1) Egypt is cracking down on fuel imports into Gaza.

2) Israel continued to provide fuel for power plants during the blackouts.

3) Hamas is refusing fuel from Israel!
If Bloomberg isn't enough for you, how about Palestine Today (put into google translate)?

Now, why would Hamas refuse to allow fuel in? That makes no sense.

Ah yes. The root of evil:
the real sad part is how fast major news outlets (and you all) fall for "its israel's fault".

Whats the point of this? Why are you posting a story about a Jew insulting a Christian?

Are you trying to undermine any support for Israel from the Christian community?

Ok. Let's compare. A Jewish man spits on a Christian and its news (disgusting behaviour, but let's recognize that it was rare and significant enough to be in the newspaper.

Let's look at yesterday's examples of legendary Muslim tolerance towards Christians:

From Associated Press:
Al Arabiya:
And most relevant, how are the Palestinians dealing with Christians? Hisham Jarallah tells us:
Oh, and don't forget kidnapping and forced conversions.

It's probably news because the Orthodox spit on an 8-year old girl for wearing supposedly immodest clothing just a few months ago and it caused a huge uproar. This, along with all the crap about the Orthodox in Brooklyn and Queens covering up sex abuse leads to news stories like this being prominent.

It's obviously just a small percentage of the Israeli population doing this, just like it's a small percentage of the Palestinian population being hateful towards Christians.

aka "2p2ers post lies they've heard about gamblor et al, gamblor points them out" thread.

Sorry, I am still confused about this picture. Can you explain how the fact that it is daylight outside has anything to do with whether there is power or not? You seemed to think this was significant.

Besides, it seems like TIME says "To emphasize its plight the Palestinian Parliament met by candlelight on Tuesday." it doesn't even sound like they are even trying to say the power was necessarily off at that moment (although the fact that sunlight exists doesn't disprove that!) but instead to draw attention to the issue.

Come on. Both you and I know that 100% of people NOT involved in a debate about the issue will skim past that picture, see "Israel" in the caption, and leave it at "look at the poor palestinians suffering at brutal Israeli hands." Whether its exactly true or not doesn't even matter. The point is made. In any event, your argument is that hamas is merely "emphasizing" the blackouts by holding a midday session in a room with the blinds drawn and by candlelight. And Israel is the propaganda machine?

Besides, even the Palestinian Authority, never one to let "the Zionists" off the hook, accuses Hamas of staging the blackouts.

JC WTF man. I posted it because a crazy religious guy or guys are doing crazy things. It happens to take place in Israel, and this is an Israel containment thread. I wasn't trying to impune the sacred honor of Israel or make a comparison between Jews and Muslims.

Come on man, I love watching you spaz in these threads as much as the next guy. But I hope you understand that you're not always correct and the other side is not lying as much as you accuse them.

Not true at all. I saw the picture and thought "Who cares?" That doesn't stop you from representing the hypothetical scenario in the most ridiculous and slanted way possible though.

Dude. I am just trying to figure out what the daylight has to do with the power being on or off. Last time I checked, the sun stayed on when the power turned off but perhaps I have that backwards. You made it sound like the sunlight somehow proved some forgery when I have not actually seen any indication that they were trying to say it was blackout then and instead they were calling attention to the issue as the TIME piece says just in the same way someone might have a hunger strike to draw attention to child hunger or something. And even if they WERE saying it was a blackout at that moment the daylight wouldn't disprove it.

All of your other stuff is addressing points I was not making.

This post is exactly why I spaz out.

I repeatedly and openly post detailed dissections of the ridiculous logic that media, "experts", Palestinian supporters, Israel-haters, and people who simply don't care enough to think really critically about the facts use to criticize Israel. I go through the criticisms detail by painstaking detail and refute them well beyond a balance of probabilities and in many cases, a reasonable doubt.

And in the face of all that, your response is "but they can't be lying as often as you say!"

Imagine how that feels when you're the one accused of supporting and participating in these heinous, evil, crimes like apartheid, genocide, racism, when all of the actual, factual evidence suggests otherwise. Or at the very least, any resemblance to those crimes is a minimal impairment on the human rights of others justified wholly by the necessity to save the lives of the citizens of your country.

All of which I've proved several times before on these forums and elsewhere, watched the accusers slink back out of the conversation, and then see the same lies and nonsense keep popping up over and over again.

So yeah, I'm frustrated.

You have not demonstrated that Israel does not have military control of the WB, but refuses the Palestinians representation in the Knesset. That is exhibit A of the apartheid argument. B would be Israeli control of water. C would be Israel controlling tariff collections. D is control of borders, for example not allowing in diplomats of the Non-Aligned Movement from entering last week: "Israel barred the foreign ministers of Malaysia and Indonesia along with ambassadors from Cuba and Bangladesh on the grounds the four countries do not recognize the Jewish state." http://news.yahoo.com/west-bank-summ...203034559.html
E is you don't deny that Israel is defined as an ethnic state. F is preferential immigration for Jews, but not Palestinian deed holders. G is erasing Palestinian existence from landscape, replacing names with Hebrew (the US at least retains Indian names of places we ethnically cleansed), covering villages emptied by the army with forests. H Palestine loses sovereignty over WB settlements. Etc., etc.

Those are all things that you don't deny and actually support, so you have hardly disproved apartheid over and over.

You? Naaa, I don't believe you could possibly be biased.

Really all I am saying is that you make mistakes and have to rely on account from bised sources just like everyone else. IIRC you live in canada so it is not like you are directly in the thick of it. You don't need to act so sanctimonious.

You say you address all the points. But a lot of the time you miss the other person's point an respond to a strawman then get really pissed off. Thats why I said I hope you understand you're not right all of the time.

to be informed is to be biased.