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Old 05-05-2009, 05:45 PM   #501
zan nen
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8 Manna from Heaven?

If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free. -P.J. O'Rourke

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride -Proverb


THE NOTION THAT ONE man’s need is another man’s obligation has become so engrained in people’s minds that revolutions, riots, and demonstrations erupt almost weekly around the world. People routinely blame their political leaders for not providing them better lifestyles. Many believe that the State can miraculously provide prosperity for everyone simply by creating and distributing wealth. People see the State as the source of a “free lunch”—manna from heaven. Not surprisingly, nearly every prospective political leader reinforces this “free lunch.” Political candidates tempt voters with an assortment of freebies, and then, when elected, add those offerings to all those freebies already on the table.

As P.J. O’Rourke quips above, the most expensive lunch is a free one. In the real world, someone must work to provide and pay for all the free benefits that others receive—and that “someone” isn’t the State. States only provide what they acquire by directly taxing those who are hard at work producing real goods, and indirectly taxing everyone—including retirees—by issuing fiat money. States can also use borrowed money, but doing so only increases the state's future dependency on direct and indirect taxes to repay those lenders. The degree and amount of such manipulation and skullduggery boggle the mind. It is virtually impossible for anyone to calculate the dollar cost of all these "free lunches". The greatest travesty, however, is not the up front taxes, but rather the detrimental impact on the recipients of free lunches. These are the very people we intend to help, but who are instead enticed into a dependency trap.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:46 PM   #502
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by snowden View Post
Bob steals Dave's car.

Dave finds out.

Dave takes Bob to court where Dave discovers that the car has been chopped up already.

Dave says that he had a pricetag of a million dollars on his 94 civic.

Judge lolz at Dave and awards the sum of what the market price of the car is plus some more bc maybe Dave did have some sentimental value attached.

Bob pays Dave (or has the money taken from his bank account by the bank in accordance with the ruling or whatever)

Dave bitches that his car is worth a million dollars.

Nobody cares.

-fin
You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART. Before Bob stole the car, Dave put a sign in the window that said "I will sell you this car for one million dollars."

This changes everything because __________________.

Still waiting for someone to fill in this blank.
 
Old 05-05-2009, 05:46 PM   #503
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Strawn world:

Bob steals Dave's car.

Dave finds out.

Dave takes Bob to court where Dave discovers that the car has been chopped up already.

Dave says that he had a pricetag of a million dollars on his 94 civic.

Judge awards Dave a million dollars.

Everyone starts putting ridiculous pricetags on everything.

Nobody can drive as nobody can insure against accident when judges award billion dollar settlements to the person hit, no matter how minor.

Nobody goes to a store fearing the possibility that they will break something in the store and be liable for a trillion dollars in damages.

Everyone dies.

strawn is vindicated. AC really doesn't work

-fin
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:52 PM   #504
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by ElliotR View Post
And there is the occasional outright refusal to discuss/debate.
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Originally Posted by Poker879 View Post
stop responding to hiim
???

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Originally Posted by zan nen View Post
We don't need no stinkin' arbitrarily appointed mods. The ****** who screams, "You owe me a unicorn!", as the thief carries off his lawn chair, will be ostracized.
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Originally Posted by zan nen View Post
If you steal my lawn chair, can I claim it was worth $50 trillion in sentimental value Strawn?
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Originally Posted by zan nen View Post
I want my ****ing unicorn
Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowden View Post
Bob steals Dave's car.

Dave finds out.

Dave takes Bob to court where Dave discovers that the car has been chopped up already.

Dave says that he had a pricetag of a million dollars on his 94 civic.

Judge lolz at Dave and awards the sum of what the market price of the car is plus some more bc maybe Dave did have some sentimental value attached.
"Yeah, those voluntary exchange goofballs are a laugh, ain't that right your honor?"

The judge just overruled Dave's right to exchange his property exclusively under terms of his own choosing.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:54 PM   #505
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

if the choices are

sometimes people get shortchanged a little when they have sentimental value attached to an object that is taken from them

or

everyone gets screwed bc judges award settlements based on what you say you think it's worth and there's little to no check on lying and inflating how much you think it's worth.


i take number 1, as does everyone, which is why number 2 isn't an objection to AC
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:59 PM   #506
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawn View Post
The judge just overruled Dave's right to exchange his property exclusively under terms of his own choosing.
No, he just did his best to correct a situation where an involuntary exchange took place.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:08 PM   #507
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by snowden View Post
if the choices are

sometimes people get shortchanged a little when they have sentimental value attached to an object that is taken from them

or

everyone gets screwed bc judges award settlements based on what you say you think it's worth and there's little to no check on lying and inflating how much you think it's worth.


i take number 1, as does everyone, which is why number 2 isn't an objection to AC
It does not necessarily have anything to do with sentimental value.

The seller names his price. You either accept it or walk away.

If you want there to be occasions where the owner of an item of property does not have the absolute authority to set the terms under which he will part with it, then your preference is for a de facto state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SL__72 View Post
No, he just did his best to correct a situation where an involuntary exchange took place.
The exchange was not involuntary. The seller offered the item to thief. The thief did just what the seller wanted him to do: take the item.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:10 PM   #508
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

to me it's similar how ignorance of the law isn't a defense. It probably should be as it seems ****ed up that someone could be found guilty of something when they honestly didn't think they were doing anything wrong given that the legal code is enormous. Unfortunately it would be far too easy to game by lying and there's no way we could be sure that people were telling the truth when they said they didn't know they were doing something wrong. AC situations, like all other situations, have to make certain rules based on what creates best consequences, and a car thief owing you a million dollars for your busted ass jalopy is not good consequences.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:10 PM   #509
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Strawn, does the thief give up all rights to his own property the minute he steals a lawn chair?
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:12 PM   #510
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

my preference is for non insanity.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:12 PM   #511
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawn View Post
It does not necessarily have anything to do with sentimental value.

The seller names his price. You either accept it or walk away.

If you want there to be occasions where the owner of an item of property does not have the absolute authority to set the terms under which he will part with it, then your preference is for a de facto state.



The exchange was not involuntary. The seller offered the item to thief. The thief did just what the seller wanted him to do: take the item.
seller presumably wanted him to pay before taking it.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:18 PM   #512
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoogs View Post
Strawn, does the thief give up all rights to his own property the minute he steals a lawn chair?
No more than if he accepts a loan under terms he can't afford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowden View Post
seller presumably wanted him to pay before taking it.
No, "buy now pay later" is fine.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:30 PM   #513
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawn View Post
The exchange was not involuntary. The seller offered the item to thief. The thief did just what the seller wanted him to do: take the item.
The exchange was involuntary. The seller offered the item for a price. The thief took the item for free. Since he can't give the item back (he owes the seller the item, not the price the seller offered it for) it is up to the judge to determine what fair compensation should be.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:35 PM   #514
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Strawn: Hey guys, in AC land are judicial bodies going to suddenly become instantly completely ******ed?

ACists: Nope.

Strawn: ANAHAHAHANNAHAJHALJKDHALKJHNAA I CANT HEAR YOU
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:04 PM   #515
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
No more than if he accepts a loan under terms he can't afford.
So you're still trying to say the thief entered a contract with the seller? I disagree, lets let the courts decide.
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:42 PM   #516
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by SL__72 View Post
The exchange was involuntary. The seller offered the item for a price. The thief took the item for free.
No he didn't. The thief may have wanted to take it for free, but he did not have that power. By voluntarily taking the item under notice of the seller's offer, the thief assumed responsibility for the terms of exchange associated with the item by the seller.

The buyer/thief completed the transaction in full knowlege of the price thereof as established by the only party with absolute authority to do so in ACland: the seller.

Quote:
Since he can't give the item back (he owes the seller the item, not the price the seller offered it for) it is up to the judge to determine what fair compensation should be.
Only the owner has the ability to set the terms under which he relinquishes possession of his property. Where do you think this is, Stateland?
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:00 PM   #517
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Re: Inclined to Liberty



Bonus Points for anybody who knows what the image is from. (But - social points ldo)
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:24 PM   #518
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Strawn:

You have yet to make the case that this "transaction" meets the standards of the "Implied in Fact" contract, as opposed to theft. Allow me to quote the relevant passage for the third time:

Quote:
]. That decision described "an agreement 'implied in fact'" as "founded upon a meeting of minds, which, although not embodied in an express contract, is inferred, as a fact, from conduct of the parties showing, in the light of the surrounding circumstances, their tacit understanding."
1. Tell me how the surrounding circumstances of a potential buyer leaving, then returning to take an object in secret infers an agreement.

This is important to establish that this was, in fact, the exchange you claimed and not a straightforward theft.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:08 PM   #519
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Fortunately for the thief, Acquittals R Us will clear him of all charges.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:24 PM   #520
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish View Post
Fortunately for the thief, Acquittals R Us will clear him of all charges.
lol A+
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:54 PM   #521
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by TomVeil View Post


Bonus Points for anybody who knows what the image is from. (But - social points ldo)

Its from M:TG obv, Hammer of Bogarden FTW!

Oh wait, maybe not? A different edition perhaps, b/c it looks like the same dude.

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Old 05-05-2009, 10:12 PM   #522
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by tubasteve View Post
Its from M:TG obv, Hammer of Bogarden FTW!

Oh wait, maybe not? A different edition perhaps, b/c it looks like the same dude.

Indeed. You're such a geek.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-05-2009, 10:24 PM   #523
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by Strawn View Post
The judge just overruled Dave's right to exchange his property exclusively under terms of his own choosing.
Uh, what property is dave no longer able to exchange because o fthe judge's decision? It can't be the car, because dave doesn't HAVE the car anymore.
 
Old 05-05-2009, 10:25 PM   #524
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawn View Post
The thief did just what the seller wanted him to do: take the item.
Then the transaction is closed and there's no liability, there is no "thief" because the item wasn't stolen, according to your stipulation. The seller, according to you, consented to the transaction.
 
Old 05-05-2009, 11:29 PM   #525
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Re: Inclined to Liberty

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Originally Posted by pvn View Post
Uh, what property is dave no longer able to exchange because o fthe judge's decision? It can't be the car, because dave doesn't HAVE the car anymore.
It is the car. The ruling effects an exchange that already happened by voiding Dave's conditions of sale after the fact.
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