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Old 07-24-2017, 01:51 AM   #126
MrWookie
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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bitcoin is to currency, is what AC is to a state
I can dig it.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:57 AM   #127
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Old 08-26-2017, 12:06 PM   #128
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

I got my own utoobzzzzz of Stossel

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Old 08-26-2017, 12:08 PM   #129
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

More like John Fossil, amirite?
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:07 AM   #130
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

I know a few, but then again, if you had to ask me the best political ideologies to describe myself with as they would either be a libertarian, a minarchist or an anti-communist (as in, I think Marxism is gaining too much traction among the youth in the United States and that's dangerous and I believe pretty strictly that capitalism is the best economic system.)

But I also want to point out that I think Anarcho-Capitalism would result in more problems than Statism IMO, but I guess that depends on the level of Statism. I think Anarcho-Capitalists tend to discount the problems associated with certain things being done for profit. Things such as firefighting and jailing being done at an expense to all, rather than profit, leads to a distinctive to put people start fires or put people in jail, and vice versa.

In the US, most jailing is done for profit, and we have tons of people lobbying the government to create more incarcerated people (and consequently, a ton of incarcerated people,) but we have primarily publicly funded fire fighting, and there is no lobbying that I'm aware of to create more fires (lol) and few instances of fire fighters turned arsonists.

Last edited by Boney526; 08-28-2017 at 04:08 AM. Reason: I mean I've been to a Libertarian Party convention so I guess I'm a Libertarian, but I'm by no means an extremist.
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Old 08-28-2017, 09:24 AM   #131
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

You don't hear about car window repair companies going around smashing car windows. Or exterminators releasing termites. Or any other million examples of this sort of situation.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:22 AM   #132
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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bitcoin is to currency, is what AC is to a state
Bitcoin has more rape?
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:39 AM   #133
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

AC and bitcoin are pipelines to crime?
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:41 AM   #134
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

27 you should move to Somalia and show us all how wrong we are.

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Old 09-08-2018, 03:02 AM   #135
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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27 you should move to Somalia and show us all how wrong we are.

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Okay I'll move to Somalia after you move to North Korea.
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Old 09-08-2018, 09:02 AM   #136
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

It took you over a year to come up with that sick burn?
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:42 AM   #137
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

What in tarnation

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Old 09-08-2018, 10:46 AM   #138
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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It took you over a year to come up with that sick burn?
He couldn't find an appropriate meme for it.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:07 AM   #139
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

It's amazing how passe Libertarian-type-ism has become in this post-Charlottesville era. I guess spewing some gibberish about how 'liberty' requires segregated lunch counters, and neo-Confederate musings... basically dog whistling for incels... doesn't hold a candle to being able to IRL terrorize an ACC campus while chanting "Jews will not replace us".

Cliffs: Alt-Right >>>> LTism. LMFAO !!!1!
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:01 PM   #140
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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From Wikipedia: "A contract is a voluntary arrangement between two or more parties that is enforceable by law as a binding legal agreement."

To me the key word is "voluntary". The Social Contract seems to be more of "You're using our goods and services that we provide and we'll tax you for it and you have no choice in the matter. We also reserve the right to alter the deal at our discretion. *Some of the money we take will be used to drone brown people."

There's some more to it, again from Wiki: "A contract arises when the parties agree that there is an agreement. Formation of a contract generally requires an offer, acceptance, consideration, and a mutual intent to be bound. Each party to a contract must have capacity to enter the agreement. Minors, intoxicated persons, and those under a mental affliction may have insufficient capacity to enter a contract. Some types of contracts may require formalities, such as a memorialization in writing."

I'd really love to see what the social contract would look like if the entirety of what it entailed was written down.
You can renounce citizenship and live anywhere you want as an adult.

Difficult for an infant to opt out but in no cases are they anything other than a net recipient of the states benefits.
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:45 PM   #141
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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This article explains the Libertarian approach to the topic of pollution better than I ever can: https://mises.org/library/libertaria...esto-pollution

"consider what would happen if private firms were able to own the rivers and the lakes. If a private firm owned Lake Erie, for example, then anyone dumping garbage in the lake would be promptly sued in the courts for their aggression against private property and would be forced by the courts to pay damages and to cease and desist from any further aggression. "
Do you really think that's a practical option when the damages are expressed in small amounts over huge numbers of people and/or that the serious damages won't be realized decades down the road? By the time certain damages are realized the offending corporations could have long ago declared bankruptcy while it's shareholders have cashed in the dividends with no legal complicity. In the case of small damages being spread over large numbers we have class action lawsuits, because most people don't have the means or the know how to navigate the legal framework on their own and having the same case tried millions of times over is prohibitively costly.

I'm not taking a position on what that damage is or isn't. But the idea that individual litigation is the best way to deal with harm being done is pretty misguided. Environmental regulation is best seen as a preemptive assessment of damages inflicted to oblige the offending parties to pay for the damage caused as efficiently as possible.

It's also pretty confusing how you'd construct a court system in a true anarcho capitalist society. What if i don't agree to the legitimacy of your court? If im successful enough i'll just send my own personal militia to snuff out your militia, and you'd have no recourse. You're basically subject to the whims of whoever has the most power regardless of how ethical they choose to be.

edit: oops old post
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Old 09-08-2018, 03:49 PM   #142
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Cliffs: AC devolves into feudalism. LolAC

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Old 09-08-2018, 05:52 PM   #143
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Do you really think that's a practical option when the damages are expressed in small amounts over huge numbers of people and/or that the serious damages won't be realized decades down the road? By the time certain damages are realized the offending corporations could have long ago declared bankruptcy while it's shareholders have cashed in the dividends with no legal complicity. In the case of small damages being spread over large numbers we have class action lawsuits, because most people don't have the means or the know how to navigate the legal framework on their own and having the same case tried millions of times over is prohibitively costly.

I'm not taking a position on what that damage is or isn't. But the idea that individual litigation is the best way to deal with harm being done is pretty misguided. Environmental regulation is best seen as a preemptive assessment of damages inflicted to oblige the offending parties to pay for the damage caused as efficiently as possible.

It's also pretty confusing how you'd construct a court system in a true anarcho capitalist society. What if i don't agree to the legitimacy of your court? If im successful enough i'll just send my own personal militia to snuff out your militia, and you'd have no recourse. You're basically subject to the whims of whoever has the most power regardless of how ethical they choose to be.

edit: oops old post
as an answer to libertarian extremists, just switching from lake pollution to air pollution would suffice to show their positions is untenable.

OTOH though, environmental regulation also applies to "preserve" stuff which is worthless for most people. So it's the superimposition of value on something that had none before.

What i mean is that the moment the preservation of a species in existence becomes the reason, or one of the reasons, of regulation, you are out of the domain of human externalities and into giving objective value to things that aren't human, or human properties.
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:51 PM   #144
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

In what sense is bio diversity, which contributes to creating an eco system suitable to humans, "worthless.".

It would seem to be almost priceless in performing services for our very core biological natural needs,e.g. life.

Its not a superimposition of value, that is in an incredibly alienated way of looking at things, its a way of a human social construct to negoitate some meaning (value) onto something that transcends it and was not created by it.

It is (bio-diversity, nature) apart from social constructs, but it is not apart from man.

You are putting the human construct as transcendent, the primary agency and describing nature as something alien to it, apart, worthless, and so becomes your own nature.

From a non alienated perspective its priceless, not worthless.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 09-09-2018 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:21 PM   #145
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

To call it pricelsss suggests that there ought to be no cost too high to save it which is an obvious problem. If it was we’d be justified in spending billions to preserve arbitrarily differentiated sub species of mosquitos.

What’s more appropriate to say is that the sum of preferences today doesn’t reflect the value to all people moving forward and there’s an inter generational aspect to imputing the value that people aren’t likely to recognize / give consideration to by intuition alone. It’s not an issue unique to environmental concerns but it’s made more complicated by the fact that estimating the value is about as fuzzy of a math as it gets.
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Old 09-09-2018, 01:31 PM   #146
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

AC sounds like an awful idea. You'd get the inequality already present in current capitalist societies, but without a strong government that even pays lip service to protecting the rights of the weak, poor and marginalized I'm sure it would be magnitudes worse.

This is what I imagine many places would look like:

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Old 09-09-2018, 03:25 PM   #147
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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To call it pricelsss suggests that there ought to be no cost too high to save it which is an obvious problem. If it was we’d be justified in spending billions to preserve arbitrarily differentiated sub species of mosquitos.

What’s more appropriate to say is that the sum of preferences today doesn’t reflect the value to all people moving forward and there’s an inter generational aspect to imputing the value that people aren’t likely to recognize / give consideration to by intuition alone. It’s not an issue unique to environmental concerns but it’s made more complicated by the fact that estimating the value is about as fuzzy of a math as it gets.
I was really just using priceless to juxtapose against worthless.

The important take away is that "value" ascribed to bio diversity etc is a mediation between social constructs and that outside of such.

Its important not to see the process of mediation as the thing in and of itself. That "value" or meaning exists independently of the mediation.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:32 AM   #148
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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I was really just using priceless to juxtapose against worthless.

The important take away is that "value" ascribed to bio diversity etc is a mediation between social constructs and that outside of such.

Its important not to see the process of mediation as the thing in and of itself. That "value" or meaning exists independently of the mediation.
Worthless= value is 0.

Priceless can mean 2 things, either that it is impossible to find a price for something, in the sense that it could be anything from 0 to infinity and you have absolutely no way to determine no matter how imprecisely where the price could be in a range, or that value is infinite.

The first is never true as it is never true that all values between 0 and infinity are equiprobable.

The second is never true as nothing has infinite value for humans.

So any use of priceless as a word to describe the value of something in an economics setting is wrong, as it is any ideology that uses that term.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:47 AM   #149
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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To call it pricelsss suggests that there ought to be no cost too high to save it which is an obvious problem. If it was we’d be justified in spending billions to preserve arbitrarily differentiated sub species of mosquitos.

What’s more appropriate to say is that the sum of preferences today doesn’t reflect the value to all people moving forward and there’s an inter generational aspect to imputing the value that people aren’t likely to recognize / give consideration to by intuition alone. It’s not an issue unique to environmental concerns but it’s made more complicated by the fact that estimating the value is about as fuzzy of a math as it gets.
Bold is only true with extremely low discount rates being applied.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:13 AM   #150
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Worthless= value is 0.

Priceless can mean 2 things, either that it is impossible to find a price for something, in the sense that it could be anything from 0 to infinity and you have absolutely no way to determine no matter how imprecisely where the price could be in a range, or that value is infinite.

The first is never true as it is never true that all values between 0 and infinity are equiprobable.

The second is never true as nothing has infinite value for humans.

So any use of priceless as a word to describe the value of something in an economics setting is wrong, as it is any ideology that uses that term.
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you are out of the domain of human externalities and into giving objective value to things that aren't human, or human properties.
No value can be objective, value is subjective, it is a negotiation between subjects. This is inherent to value.

Nature = object.

The point you are missing is that you cant reduce nature to economics, thus it is priceless. You cant reduce the object to the subject.

You might try and find an economic solution for problems involving nature, but if you internalise that solution, view the mediation as the thing itself, then one has an alienated view of nature.

Economics might try to put a price on something, but that is purely symbolic, a representation. The important thing is to keep this in mind when making attempts to come to economic meaning.
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