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Old 09-10-2007, 02:56 PM   #76
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

I expect the number to be very small. However, it's probaly too specific to be asking for AC. It might be interesting to find out about how many anarchists are out there as they probaly have a lot in common.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:42 AM   #77
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

We most obviously already live in the best possible world.
If there really was a demand for an AC society the market for economic and political system would already have created it.
q.e.d.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:59 AM   #78
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Quote:
If there really was a demand for an AC society the market for economic and political system would already have created it.
Agreed, unless the system, in this case AC, is so fragile that it has no chance of ever succeeding. If that is so, gives me the attempts at a systematized democracy with a government, before any jungles!
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:29 AM   #79
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Anyone care to take a shot at an estimate? I'm curious about the total number of "Borodog-type" ACist's in the world -- that is, educated, productive people who have come to the AC philosophy based on reasoned economic and ethical considerations (specifically not counting the "teen angst" variety of anarchists).

I'm going to throw out the first number that comes to mind -- I'm guessing that there are fewer than a million such people in the world, total. How badly wrong (or how overly safe) do you think this guess is?
I'm pretty sure any figures quoted are unreliable. I haven't read the rest of the post, so maybe there has been some polling of statistical significance.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:51 PM   #80
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Ten years later, I'd guess...

Spoiler:
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:21 PM   #81
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
Anyone who has felt the authentic joy of real intellectual community is an AC'er waiting to happen.

On the other hand, everyone who knows only the suspicious human, the small-minded human, the self-loathing, creeping human who needs the whip and the yoke...those are the statists.
As always, the problem is not the A. The problem is the C.
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Old 07-04-2017, 04:13 AM   #82
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by Metric View Post
Anyone care to take a shot at an estimate? I'm curious about the total number of "Borodog-type" ACist's in the world -- that is, educated, productive people who have come to the AC philosophy based on reasoned economic and ethical considerations (specifically not counting the "teen angst" variety of anarchists).

I'm going to throw out the first number that comes to mind -- I'm guessing that there are fewer than a million such people in the world, total. How badly wrong (or how overly safe) do you think this guess is?

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Old 07-04-2017, 07:00 AM   #83
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

These threads make me miss Borodog and Nielsio.
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:07 AM   #84
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Old 07-05-2017, 12:44 AM   #85
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

27allin, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the merits of Ethical Egoism over Social Contract Theory.
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Old 07-05-2017, 03:54 AM   #86
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
27allin, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the merits of Ethical Egoism over Social Contract Theory.
I don't know why you phrase it as if these are the only two options. I don't even really believe in Ethical Egoism. I think Psychological Egoism has some plausibility though, from my quick Wikipedia read of it.
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Old 07-05-2017, 03:59 AM   #87
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

ACism is Ethical Egoism, your image is referencing Social Contract Theory. You are an ACist, right?

They're obviously not the only two approach to philosophy and ethics.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:00 AM   #88
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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ACism is Ethical Egoism
Where'd you get that from?
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:02 AM   #89
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Contemporary Moral Problems last semester at University.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:06 AM   #90
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Can you tell me how ACism is connected to Ethical Egoism exactly?
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:13 AM   #91
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

I can tell you why I think the Social Contract is bunk. Simply because it doesn't mean anything. It's an empty, friendly-sounding phrase used to justify redistribution of wealth, aka socialism, and in the process governments can wage wars, engage in extremely burdensome regulation, and make peaceful activities illegal. It has nothing to do with what a real contract is.
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Old 07-05-2017, 09:50 AM   #92
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 27AllIn View Post
I can tell you why I think the Social Contract is bunk. Simply because it doesn't mean anything. It's an empty, friendly-sounding phrase used to justify redistribution of wealth, aka socialism, and in the process governments can wage wars, engage in extremely burdensome regulation, and make peaceful activities illegal. It has nothing to do with what a real contract is.
I'd be very interested to hear what you think a "real" contract is.

There are lots of situations where you can be deemed to have made a contract with someone by virtue of your accepting the benefits of said contract.
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Old 07-05-2017, 10:14 AM   #93
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by catfacemeowmers View Post
I'd be very interested to hear what you think a "real" contract is.

There are lots of situations where you can be deemed to have made a contract with someone by virtue of your accepting the benefits of said contract.
From Wikipedia: "A contract is a voluntary arrangement between two or more parties that is enforceable by law as a binding legal agreement."

To me the key word is "voluntary". The Social Contract seems to be more of "You're using our goods and services that we provide and we'll tax you for it and you have no choice in the matter. We also reserve the right to alter the deal at our discretion. *Some of the money we take will be used to drone brown people."

There's some more to it, again from Wiki: "A contract arises when the parties agree that there is an agreement. Formation of a contract generally requires an offer, acceptance, consideration, and a mutual intent to be bound. Each party to a contract must have capacity to enter the agreement. Minors, intoxicated persons, and those under a mental affliction may have insufficient capacity to enter a contract. Some types of contracts may require formalities, such as a memorialization in writing."

I'd really love to see what the social contract would look like if the entirety of what it entailed was written down.

Last edited by 27AllIn; 07-05-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 07-05-2017, 11:15 AM   #94
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

It would probably look a lot like the pop ups which companies have put in place to comply with EU cookie laws "This country uses taxes to improve your user experience. By remaining in this country you agree to our taxation policy. For more details click here"
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Old 07-05-2017, 12:55 PM   #95
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
It would probably look a lot like the pop ups which companies have put in place to comply with EU cookie laws "This country uses taxes to improve your user experience. By remaining in this country you agree to our taxation policy. For more details click here"
I never agreed in a "contract" to those damn property ownership laws.

I guess, as I travel about in ACland, I'll get notices like: "This property uses rent to improve your user experience. By remaining on this property you agree to our rent policy. Oh yeah, you agree to the entire ACland constitution/courts/dro-goon regime too. FYI: This includes enslavement of your own children. For details sent gold here.
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Old 07-05-2017, 01:30 PM   #96
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Dogecoins dude not gold. You're so 2007.
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Old 07-05-2017, 07:44 PM   #97
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 27AllIn View Post
Can you tell me how ACism is connected to Ethical Egoism exactly?

Quote:
Ethical egoism is the normative ethical position that moral agents ought to do what is in their own self-interest.
...

Ethical egoism holds that actions whose consequences will benefit the doer can be considered ethical.
...

Ethical egoism is often used as the philosophical basis for support of right-libertarianism and individualist anarchism.[3] These are political positions based partly on a belief that individuals should not coercively prevent others from exercising freedom of action.
...

Recent trends to greater appreciation of egoism within anarchism tend to come from less classical directions such as post-left anarchy or Situationism (e.g. Raoul Vaneigem). Egoism has also been referenced by anarcho-capitalists, such as Murray Rothbard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_egoism
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Old 07-05-2017, 07:58 PM   #98
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

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Originally Posted by 27AllIn View Post
I can tell you why I think the Social Contract is bunk. Simply because it doesn't mean anything. It's an empty, friendly-sounding phrase used to justify redistribution of wealth, aka socialism, and in the process governments can wage wars, engage in extremely burdensome regulation, and make peaceful activities illegal. It has nothing to do with what a real contract is.

That's not an accurate summary.

Thomas Hobbes came up with SCT, and it's summarized well in the book we used in class.

Quote:
Suppose we take away all the traditional props for morality. Assume first that there is no God to issue commands and reward virtue. Next suppose that there are no "natural purposes" - objects in nature have no inherent functions or intended uses. Finally, assume that human beings are naturally selfish. Where then could morality come from? If we cannot appeal to God, natural purpose, or altruism, is there anything left to base morality on?

Hobbes tried to show that morality does not depend on any of those things. Instead, morality should be understood as the solution to a practical problem that arises for self-interested human beings. We all want to live as well as possible; but in order to flourish, we need a peaceful, cooperative social order. And we cannot have one withour rules. Those rules are the moral rules; morality consists of the precepts we need to follow in order to get the benefits of social living. That, not God, inherent purposes, or altruism, is the key to understanding ethics.

Hobbes begins by asking what it would be like if there were no way to enforce social rules. Suppose there were no government instutitions, no laws, no police, and no courts. In this situation, each of us would be free to do as we pleased. Hobbes called this "the state of nature."
...

The state of nature would be awful, Hobbes thought, due to four basic facts about human life:

* equality of need
* scarcity of resources
* the essential equality of human power
* limited altruism
...

Together these facts paint a grim picture. We all need the same basic things, and there aren't enough of them to go around. Therefor we will have to compete for them, but no one can prevail in this competition, and almost no one will look after their neighbors. The result, as Hobbes puts it, is a "constant state of war, of one with all."
...

To escape the state of nature, we must find a way to work together. In a stable and cooperative society, we can produce more essential goods and distribute them in a rational way. But establishing such a society is not easy. People must agree on rules to govern their interactions. They must agree for example, to not harm one another and not to break their promises. Hobbes calls such an agreement "the social contract".
The Elements of Moral Philosophy - James and Stuart Rachels
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Old 07-05-2017, 08:51 PM   #99
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

Thanks for typing all that up, and to a large extend I agree with it. If people are fighting each other and refuse to cooperate then no system is going to work. What ACists believe is that for a State to be legitimate, there needs to be a real contract that people actually sign. We believe that it's possible for government to be voluntary, instead of people being born into it and unable to opt-out. We also believe that private law, private security, and private courts can all exist and do a better job than if there's a monopoly on those services, like what we have now. Competition would improve them immensely.

I find it amusing when people bring up Social Contract, because it can justify anything. Why don't we beat up that millionaire and take all his stuff? Social contract! Let's go over to those pot-heads and throw them in a cage. Social Contract! You're going to pay for endless wars overseas whether you like it or not. Again, Social Contract!
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Old 07-07-2017, 02:14 AM   #100
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Re: how many ACists in the world?

too many
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