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Old 05-27-2015, 11:24 AM   #2676
MrWookie
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Wait, you want to equate people who actually get into violent altercations with the police with people who did everything right?
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:32 AM   #2677
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Does it surprise you that people "do everything right" and still wind up in very bad circumstances with police?
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:34 AM   #2678
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Oh right. You just baselessly assume that there's something we don't know about that Tamir Rice did in the two seconds he had between police arrival and the first bullet hitting him that made his death an understandable consequence rather than a tremendous injustice.
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:35 AM   #2679
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

And as for race not playing as big a role as we think, how much racism is acceptable, wil?
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:41 AM   #2680
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
Oh right. You just baselessly assume that there's something we don't know about that Tamir Rice did in the two seconds he had between police arrival and the first bullet hitting him that made his death an understandable consequence rather than a tremendous injustice.
We are not stupid people. We know that Tamir Rice didn't deserve to die. We saw the "toy" he had in his hand. His death was tragic, but he had something that looked like a weapon on him.

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And as for race not playing as big a role as we think, how much racism is acceptable, wil?
It depends on who you ask. Anyone who isn't white in this country faces racism. People say racist things to me on a daily basis. We just accept most of it. Honestly, most of it isn't really a big deal unless we want to make a big deal out of it, so we just learn to live with it.
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:45 AM   #2681
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
And yes, I consider the idea that two people should be able to do the same thing and be treated the same and suffer identical consequences regardless of race to be a pretty normal idea. I know it's not currently that way. That's racist, and it should change. One should be outraged that it is this way.
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Black people have it worse than other races when dealing with cops. We all know this.

But race doesn't play as big a factor as you think.
Wil,
Do you agree or disagree with what Wookie said here? Which option best characterizes your view:

A) A black person, on average, is likely to be treated worse by a police officer than an otherwise-identical white person in the same situation.

B) A black person, on average, is likely to be treated worse by a police officer than a white person, but it's basically due to correlated "legitimate" factors like demeanor, offense severity, prior record (which may in turn be driven by factors like education, poverty, etc.)

C) Black people and white people receive the same treatment from police.

D, I guess to be fair) Black people receive better treatment from the police than white people.

It's hard to tell what you're actually arguing here. My best interpretation of what you're saying is that yes (A) is partially true, but not as much as some people claim. But I don't think anyone here has ever really quantified, as if it's even possible, how much of the observed racial disparity is driven by A vs. B.** So, to me at least, you're coming off as saying, "Stop talking so much about race", but it's not clear why it bothers you so much that people are focusing on race. To me, if A is true to any significant degree, then it's a problem that's worth talking about and addressing.



**I don't do research in this area, but a large 2011 Criminology study (Kochel et al.) seems pretty emphatic about the arrest decision:

Quote:
By focusing solely on arrest and doing so systematically and quantitatively, we help to fill the gap in knowledge reported by the National Research Council and by the American Sociological Association. From our findings, we can conclude more definitively than prior nonsystematic reviews that racial minority suspects experience a higher probability of arrest than do Whites. We report with confidence that the results are not mixed. Race matters. Our finding is consistent with what most of the American public perceives, and that finding holds over time, research site, across data collection methods, and across publication types. Furthermore, controlling for demeanor, offense severity, presence of witnesses, quantity of evidence at the scene, the occurrence or discovery of a new criminal offense during the encounter, the suspect being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, prior record of the suspect, or requests to arrest by victims does not significantly reduce the strength of the relationship between suspect race and arrest. It remains possible that unaccounted for legal aspects of the police–citizen encounter could explain the race–arrest relationship, reducing the observed effect even to zero. However, it seems unlikely that improvements in the measurement of legally relevant factors will meaningfully change the strength of the observed relationship, given the robustness of the evidence examined in this meta-analysis to existing attempts at accounting for these factors. Thus, the most credible conclusion based on the evidence examined is that race does affect the likelihood of an arrest.

Statistically, the effect is clearly significant, but interpreting the effect size requires broader contextual considerations. On average, the chances of a minority suspect being arrested were found to be 30 percent greater than a White suspect (rising from the sample average of .20 for Whites to .26 for minorities). This finding is larger than most race effects found in a meta-analysis of court sentencing, with the exception of non-federal drug offenses and federal property offenses (Mitchell, 2005). Several of the overall mean effects in the court sentencing area were substantially smaller, such as an odds ratio of 1.09 for nonfederal courts’ sentencing of property offenses and 1.08 federal courts’ sentencing of drug offenses. Because of the interconnectedness of decisions made in the criminal justice system, even small racial differences that occur at many points in the criminal justice process will compound and produce profound effects further along in the system (Kempf-Leonard, 2007).
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:51 AM   #2682
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Originally Posted by spidercrab View Post
Wil,
Do you agree or disagree with what Wookie said here? Which option best characterizes your view:

A) A black person, on average, is likely to be treated worse by a police officer than an otherwise-identical white person in the same situation.

B) A black person, on average, is likely to be treated worse by a police officer than a white person, but it's basically due to correlated "legitimate" factors like demeanor, offense severity, prior record (which may in turn be driven by factors like education, poverty, etc.)

C) Black people and white people receive the same treatment from police.

D, I guess to be fair) Black people receive better treatment from the police than white people.
In my view it's easily B. How you react to a police officer many times will dictate how you will be treated. As I've said, every black person I know has no problems with cops because they know how to act around them. Most of my friends are older, so that may have something to do with it.

When you see the video below, how do you feel? Black dude has a gun pointed at a white dude, and a white cop shows up. Guess what happens next?

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Old 05-27-2015, 11:53 AM   #2683
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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if you think I could care less about being banned from here for a day, you are a fool.
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Edit : I still want to know who banned me, why, and what constitutes a "personal attack". Make it public, and let's laugh about it.
lol
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:03 PM   #2684
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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lol
I have no issues with being banned. Most of the times I just shrug my shoulders and never say anything because I know I deserved it. My last instance of being banned was uncalled for, and I said something about it.

The ban didn't bother me. The reason did.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:04 PM   #2685
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
When you see the video below, how do you feel? Black dude has a gun pointed at a white dude, and a white cop shows up. Guess what happens next?

Good lord. For those not willing to sit through a 3 minute video, you may have been expecting the police to TAKE DOWN THE ARMED BLACK GUY. YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHAT HAPPENS NEXT:

Spoiler:


How do I feel? I feel like I just watched a 3 minute video showing a responsible black gun owner being treated appropriately by police. I may be remarkably thick headed, but watching that video didn't change my worldview in any meaningful way. To be clear, I don't think that showing 1 or 10 or 1,000,000 examples of proper behavior erases a relatively small proportion of improper, systematically racist behavior.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:14 PM   #2686
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Also, when you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
In my view it's easily B. [A black person, on average, is likely to be treated worse by a police officer than a white person, but it's basically due to correlated "legitimate" factors like demeanor, offense severity, prior record (which may in turn be driven by factors like education, poverty, etc.)] How you react to a police officer many times will dictate how you will be treated. As I've said, every black person I know has no problems with cops because they know how to act around them. Most of my friends are older, so that may have something to do with it.
I think 2 things:
A) It's ****ty that black people have to act better around the police than white people in order to receive the same degree of treatment, and you should feel bad for your friends who have to live like that.

B) The ****ing excerpt from the study I referenced in the same post specifically mentioned controlling for all of those situational factors, and they still find robust evidence of racial disparity.

Quote:
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Furthermore, controlling for demeanor, offense severity, presence of witnesses, quantity of evidence at the scene, the occurrence or discovery of a new criminal offense during the encounter, the suspect being under the influence of drugs or alcohol, prior record of the suspect, or requests to arrest by victims does not significantly reduce the strength of the relationship between suspect race and arrest.
[...]
On average, the chances of a minority suspect being arrested were found to be 30 percent greater than a White suspect
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:21 PM   #2687
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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And yes, I consider the idea that two people should be able to do the same thing and be treated the same and suffer identical consequences regardless of race to be a pretty normal idea. I know it's not currently that way. That's racist, and it should change. One should be outraged that it is this way.
Like WTF. Yeah Wil, that's a pretty textbook definition of racism and clearly something we should be trying to change.

Also, no, no one believes you are randomly asking a large cross-section of black acquaintances about their encounters with police and analyzing them in any sort of meaningful manner.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:22 PM   #2688
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

I like how wil accuses me of talking down to black people, but then just a few posts later he's saying that, e.g. black teen males, who are >20x more likely to be killed by police than white teen males, the disparity is just because the black people are stupider, more criminal and/or more uppity than whites.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:34 PM   #2689
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

come on guys, we cant discount the opinions of all the random black security guards and homeless people that wil has surveyed on his way in and out of work
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:39 PM   #2690
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Apparently MrWookie banned me for calling goofyballer "pathetic". Just to warn everyone, do NOT call anyone pathetic anymore, it's against the rules. Saying "I hope your daughter gets raped" is perfectly fine though if your name is fly.
wil obviously has me on ignore because he mad, but that's a pretty heavy accusation and if wil can't produce a citation that I said that to someone, I think moderator action may be called for.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:49 PM   #2691
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

You did say "I hope IF your daughter ever gets raped" to me, and then "in before microbet throws himself a pity party", but I never mentioned it until now because you need to throw your pity party and whine for help from a moderator.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:19 PM   #2692
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

LOL you been nursing that grudge. Nobody made you wander into the drunk sex thread to drop "but what if the guy is drunk too, though?" and then white knight for ikes. Seriously, talk to your kids about the chain emails you treat credulously. Let em know what kind of man you are. Let them know whose side you'll be on.

But yeah, I'll take that as a concession that the "awful posting cooperative" is making up that I said that about someone. Look at you, microbet, barging into THIS thread to.... white knight, yet again, for someone saying awful ****. Always a good look.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:25 PM   #2693
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Not a grudge, it is understandably noticeable when you want help from a moderator though. It was the tipping point of you not being able to be taken seriously. You're a comedy routine with like 8 different jokes that you've repeated over and over again for years. I didn't know that at the time.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:31 PM   #2694
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

The thing is, this grudge is all because microbet "knew" ikes and the other MRAs weren't getting a fair shake, so he was like making sarcastic jabs at Poker Reference and lying about how everyone totes agreed that rape is bad so nobody be mean to the reactionaries.

Here's my full quote:
Quote:
I hope if your daughter ever gets raped you remember how hilarious of a subject matter this is.
I stand by that as a last ditch effort to finally provoke the tiniest shred of basic human decency out of micro. It was absolutely not a wish that anyone be raped, which is what wil said.

So, microbet, in your everlasting commitment to being FAIR and JUST, would you say that wil lied about me?
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:33 PM   #2695
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

I capitalized the "if" specifically to make it evident that that quote was not you wishing rape on my daughter. I assume you're not too dumb to realize that. I don't know what you've said about other people's daughters.

You don't have to make your case itt, just report wil's post to a moderator. If Wookie doesn't do anything, maybe make a thread in ATF.
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:53 PM   #2696
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Glad that microbet stopped by to confirm that yes, wil was full of ****.
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:59 PM   #2697
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post

When you see the video below, how do you feel? Black dude has a gun pointed at a white dude, and a white cop shows up. Guess what happens next?

Wow!! A guy with a permit to carry a weapon defends himself against a criminal and police don't shoot the armed black man. This video has to be fake.
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:11 PM   #2698
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

If he was unarmed I wouldn't have liked his chances.
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:54 PM   #2699
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

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A) It's ****ty that black people have to act better around the police than white people in order to receive the same degree of treatment, and you should feel bad for your friends who have to live like that.
It's really not that big of a deal. Like I've said, white people getting away with stuff isn't something we already knew.
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:57 PM   #2700
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Re: Here we go again... (unarmed black teen shot by cop): Rioting in Baltimore

Arrests are down more than 50% and there were 36 murders this month. All because 6 cops ****ed up and were held accountable.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...527-story.html
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