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Old 08-14-2015, 03:26 AM   #676
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

Very unlikely they get a new unsecured agreement. Expect a series of bridge loans into next year that are only enough to pay back the ECB and IMF at each iteration. Undoubtedly there have been teams in Brussels and Berlin running models trying to find the best time to cut the cord, right before the next round of elections in Spain, France, Germany etc. The Eurocrats and their oligarchy benefactors want to make an example out of Greece, and they want that example to have the maximum effect right before those elections.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:18 AM   #677
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

You really think Germany is going to give Greece that much extra money while already planning for their default later. If they wanted to cut the cord they would have done it now and blame the Greek government for all of it. Merkel is in enough trouble back home as it is for giving Greece more money. Giving Greece money now and then cutting the cord shortly before the German elections is a guaranteed way for Merkel to lose those elections.
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Old 08-14-2015, 07:15 AM   #678
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

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Originally Posted by Dutch101 View Post
You really think Germany is going to give Greece that much extra money while already planning for their default later.
I think they will provide the bridge loans needed to repay the ECB and IMF for awhile longer and that's about it. Maybe they will provide a little more if the Greeks put up collateral. Otherwise I don't think Greece will get to keep another unsecured dime.

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If they wanted to cut the cord they would have done it now and blame the Greek government for all of it.
When could they have done it before now? Never, of course. The first bailout was an emergency measure, designed to offload bad debt from German and French banks onto taxpayers. The second bailout was designed to save Spain and Italy and keep contagion at bay.

As for a third bailout? Here's the shocking thing to consider: it doesn't matter who is in charge in Greece (PASOK, New Democracy, or Syriza). Once Italian and Spanish bond spreads came in, the Troika surely made the decision to only offer further funds if they were completely secured. As long as the Greek government is willing to pool together national assets and hand them into a foreign custodial account, the Troika would be more than happy to do business with them. Short of that, they are done with Greece. PASOK and New Democracy would have been counted on to do exactly that -- indefinitely. Obviously the political situation changed when Syriza swept to power.

So back to your question, why didn't the EU cut Greece off already in 2015?

I think the simple answer is that they would still like to offer Greece fully secured, short-term loans. That would be the Troika's preferred path going forward. What would they have to lose? They aren't really giving Greece any new money, while still hoping the Greeks will toil away in slavery to pay back previous debts a little bit at a time. Additionally, if the duration of any new program were kept relatively short, the Troika would reserve the right to cut the cord voluntarily at any time, if politics (and finances) elsewhere in Europe called for such action.

Perhaps Tsipras will go along with the scheme. If not, the Troika will play cat-and-mouse with him for awhile with bridge loans, in hopes that his government falls and Pasok or New Democracy come back into power. Either way, the Troika's interests are purely limited to short-term debt extraction from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Dutch101 View Post
Merkel is in enough trouble back home as it is for giving Greece more money.
Merkel is the most popular person in Germany, by a wide margin. She is keeping her party in power all by herself. She's not in much trouble at all.

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Originally Posted by Dutch101 View Post
Giving Greece money now and then cutting the cord shortly before the German elections is a guaranteed way for Merkel to lose those elections.
Which is why they won't give another unsecured dime that doesn't pay back the IMF or ECB.

Last edited by Shuffle; 08-14-2015 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:31 AM   #679
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

Greeks would have to be stupid to take out secured loans to pay off unsecured loans.
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:45 PM   #680
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

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Originally Posted by BigPoppa View Post
Greeks would have to be stupid to take out secured loans to pay off unsecured loans.
Why, is taking out a home equity loan always worse than defaulting on your credit card debt?
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Old 09-20-2015, 02:35 PM   #681
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

Bump this. So Syriza is on course to lose only 4 seats. Their first 6 months were preety much worse case scenario and yet they get almost the same amount of votes.

The guys before him must have been really really bad.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:52 PM   #682
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

The guy before him is getting blamed for things he had no control over but the ones before that were really, really bad. Not surprised they are giving Syriza another chance even though they bluffed and lost when dealing with Germany.
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Old 10-13-2015, 02:38 AM   #683
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

I am Greek and I can assure you that Syriza has let everyone down here.
The politics in Greece is like the mary go round.
Everyone gives promises that they cannot eventually fullfill and we are a country that's composed of uneducated individuals for the most part.
The youth is totally submerged into a lifestyle that can only get things worse.
Kids nowadays may take UNI courses but they are practically illiterate.
They know nothing of their countrie's history and they do not study books.
The only thing we can do as Greeks to turn things around is invest in education.
I mean profound and fundamentally sound education.Instead of trying to make people better we stuff their heads with things that barely have application to every day life problems.
The con of that is that the benefits of education will vaguely start to make their appearance in around 100 or 200 years from now.
Until then we will continue to sustain the same unbearable financial and survival problems.
The problem in Greece is not a financial problem itself.
In fact the problem in Greece is one huge mentality crisis.
No one is willing to act in order to benefit Greece.
Everyone operates selfishly to satisfy it's own interests and I am not only reffering to politicians who for them stealing has become something blatantly commonplace,but I am talking about citizens too.
We are totally uninformed about what's happening to us,without our permission or admittance.
I mean,the referendum that took place 3 months ago showed that the majority of Greeks decided to vote 'NO'.
I write 'NO' in capital letters to make the word look like a scream,a desperate shout towards the public opinion.A scream that implied that we Greeks are not to be messed with,and won't let anyone to push us around like ragdolls.We are proud for who we are and even though we are financialy and emotionaly beat we are willing to resist against the IMF and Germany.
To be frank,this referendum was the most dissapointing event that took place
in the summer.
The reason for that is that Greece said 'NO'.
We stated that we won't comply with the new austerity measures and eventually we are to make our own destiny,outside the eurozone.
How horrific could this be????Like really???
Our life is hanging on a tiny thread and the majority of Greece said:Well **** it,let's cut this ****ing thread,we can do this on our own.
Well that's some dumb reasoning.
The Greeks that voted 'NO' did not take into account the consequences of Grexit.
First of all we would have to produce our own currency.A currency that had to be substandard and it's market value would be minimal.
Inflation would skyrocket instantly making Greeks incapable of transacting with countries abroad.
Imports of general goods would cease,hence businesses would not be able to operate and the list goes on.
My country would be handicapped forever.But pride blinded 3/4 of Greece.
Now I will say something really harsh for Greeks and I may be flamed for that but it's something that just wants to burst out of my chest.
WE created the dept,and by that I mean all of us.From the smallest employee to the greatest tycoon or politician in Greece.
Tax evasion was so trite that almost noone was brought to justice.
We were living it large,spending money that we could not afford to spend and you know what???We were proud as balls for what we have become.
Now we are complaining about a dept that we ourselves created and ultimatelly it has become so vast that we are not able to play.It's clearly our fault.
Huge scandals were brought to light,but no one faced a sentence behind bars,conversely individuals that were accused for fraud and stealing,are placed in the top ranks of political parties.
About 5 years ago the situation was so out of hand that the public opinion needed a scape goat,so the minster of defence was incarcerated with accusations like treason and embezzlement of national funds.
And that was it.Porblem solved.
Greece doesn't need scape goats.We need justice,fair and swift.
That's what we need.
To end this post I would like to state this.

Talking about the salvage of Greece is just a waste of time.
If we don't change our mindset,we are doomed to live a life that's controlled
by financial institutes and banks.

I've said so much,cause I guess I am not that bold talking these kinds of things with my peers cause it's pretty sure that I would get berated about my opinions related to this matter.

I really hope that Ill get through to some of you that will put in the time to read this,and hopefully change or rethink your opinion about Greece.


Cheers!!!!!

Last edited by kakospaidis; 10-13-2015 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:47 PM   #684
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakospaidis View Post
I am Greek and I can assure you that Syriza has let everyone down here.
The politics in Greece is like the mary go round.
Everyone gives promises that they cannot eventually fullfill and we are a country that's composed of uneducated individuals for the most part.
1. The youth is totally submerged into a lifestyle that can only get things worse.
Kids nowadays may take UNI courses but they are practically illiterate.
They know nothing of their countrie's history and they do not study books.
The only thing we can do as Greeks to turn things around is invest in education.
I mean profound and fundamentally sound education.Instead of trying to make people better we stuff their heads with things that barely have application to every day life problems.
The con of that is that the benefits of education will vaguely start to make their appearance in around 100 or 200 years from now.
Until then we will continue to sustain the same unbearable financial and survival problems.

The problem in Greece is not a financial problem itself.
2. In fact the problem in Greece is one huge mentality crisis.
No one is willing to act in order to benefit Greece.
Everyone operates selfishly to satisfy it's own interests and I am not only reffering to politicians who for them stealing has become something blatantly commonplace,but I am talking about citizens too.

We are totally uninformed about what's happening to us,without our permission or admittance.
3. I mean,the referendum that took place 3 months ago showed that the majority of Greeks decided to vote 'NO'.
I write 'NO' in capital letters to make the word look like a scream,a desperate shout towards the public opinion.A scream that implied that we Greeks are not to be messed with,and won't let anyone to push us around like ragdolls.We are proud for who we are and even though we are financialy and emotionaly beat we are willing to resist against the IMF and Germany.
To be frank,this referendum was the most dissapointing event that took place
in the summer.
The reason for that is that Greece said 'NO'.
We stated that we won't comply with the new austerity measures and eventually we are to make our own destiny,outside the eurozone.
How horrific could this be????Like really???
Our life is hanging on a tiny thread and the majority of Greece said:Well **** it,let's cut this ****ing thread,we can do this on our own.

Well that's some dumb reasoning.
The Greeks that voted 'NO' did not take into account the consequences of Grexit.
4. First of all we would have to produce our own currency.A currency that had to be substandard and it's market value would be minimal.
Inflation would skyrocket instantly making Greeks incapable of transacting with countries abroad.
Imports of general goods would cease,hence businesses would not be able to operate and the list goes on.
My country would be handicapped forever.But pride blinded 3/4 of Greece.

Now I will say something really harsh for Greeks and I may be flamed for that but it's something that just wants to burst out of my chest.
5. WE created the dept,and by that I mean all of us.From the smallest employee to the greatest tycoon or politician in Greece.
Tax evasion was so trite that almost noone was brought to justice.
We were living it large,spending money that we could not afford to spend and you know what???We were proud as balls for what we have become.
Now we are complaining about a dept that we ourselves created and ultimatelly it has become so vast that we are not able to play.It's clearly our fault.
Huge scandals were brought to light,but no one faced a sentence behind bars,conversely individuals that were accused for fraud and stealing,are placed in the top ranks of political parties.

About 5 years ago the situation was so out of hand that the public opinion needed a scape goat,so the minster of defence was incarcerated with accusations like treason and embezzlement of national funds.
And that was it.Porblem solved.
Greece doesn't need scape goats.We need justice,fair and swift.
That's what we need.
To end this post I would like to state this.

Talking about the salvage of Greece is just a waste of time.
If we don't change our mindset,we are doomed to live a life that's controlled
by financial institutes and banks.

I've said so much,cause I guess I am not that bold talking these kinds of things with my peers cause it's pretty sure that I would get berated about my opinions related to this matter.

I really hope that Ill get through to some of you that will put in the time to read this,and hopefully change or rethink your opinion about Greece.


Cheers!!!!!
Thanks for the post.

1. The education system caused the problem, everyone was treated equal and more resources went to bad students. This can be fixed by giving everyone a voucher the parents can choose to send their kids to school or put the money into an account to be used when they are 18.

2. You should read Ayn Rand, the problem here is people need to be allowed to fail. The good need to be allowed to get strong. The bad need to be poor.

3. Why would anyone want to be in the Eurozone? However, you are correct you can not end austerity by leaving the Eurozone, to leave the Eurozone means you are implementing austerity. However, imho austerity is good.

4. That is their choice, it is your opinion it is best to stay in Eurozone maybe you are wrong and they are right.

5. No you did not create the debt. The debt was created by the ruling classes, the government workers, the schoolteachers. I would be willing to bet most people in the country that worked in the private sector never wanted them to spend all the money on waste and corruption. Once elected they all spend. You are lucky you don't have to spend on defense or welfare to other countries like in the USA. The problem is not the tax evaders, you can simplify the tax code to stop that. The problem will always be the spenders, liberal government spending unable to spend less than tax receipts like it is something moral in their mush for brains to do so. The poor making $5 Euros an hour would be far better off without the government trying to help them.

note: You can leave the eurozone and you don't need to print a currency. You can use the dollar, euro, bitcoin, or 1 troy oz of silver as currency. It is best not to have a currency as it will prevent the government from taxing, spending it on themselves, claiming they help you.

Last edited by steelhouse; 10-13-2015 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-13-2015, 11:53 PM   #685
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelhouse View Post
Thanks for the post.

1. The education system caused the problem, everyone was treated equal and more resources went to bad students. This can be fixed by giving everyone a voucher the parents can choose to send their kids to school or put the money into an account to be used when they are 18.

2. You should read Ayn Rand, the problem here is people need to be allowed to fail. The good need to be allowed to get strong. The bad need to be poor.

3. Why would anyone want to be in the Eurozone? However, you are correct you can not end austerity by leaving the Eurozone, to leave the Eurozone means you are implementing austerity. However, imho austerity is good.

4. That is their choice, it is your opinion it is best to stay in Eurozone maybe you are wrong and they are right.

5. No you did not create the debt. The debt was created by the ruling classes, the government workers, the schoolteachers. I would be willing to bet most people in the country that worked in the private sector never wanted them to spend all the money on waste and corruption. Once elected they all spend. You are lucky you don't have to spend on defense or welfare to other countries like in the USA. The problem is not the tax evaders, you can simplify the tax code to stop that. The problem will always be the spenders, liberal government spending unable to spend less than tax receipts like it is something moral in their mush for brains to do so. The poor making $5 Euros an hour would be far better off without the government trying to help them.

note: You can leave the eurozone and you don't need to print a currency. You can use the dollar, euro, bitcoin, or 1 troy oz of silver as currency. It is best not to have a currency as it will prevent the government from taxing, spending it on themselves, claiming they help you.
I think I am not getting through right here.
In order to give parents vouchers to send their kids to school or
invest the money in accounts that will enable them to give their kids
a kick-start in their carreers requires an organized monetary system
guarded and maintained by appropriate politicians.
I highly doubt this is doable right now or in 20 years from now.
The pension system is descending more and more and has made elder people live with nickels and dimes.
The suicide rates are in exacerbation and the people have gave up hope pretty much.
Unemployment has now hit unprecedented rates and all the new greek scinentists flee out of Greece,simply because their efforts here will reamain fruitless.

You say that people are allowed to fail and I support this status.
Greek people were so lenient towards politic parties before Syriza but eventually they seem to be failing from 1975 till now,only that the consequences and the effects of this constant failing were made visible from 2008 and on.
I simply can't connive with the issues we're facing here in Greece and with the incompetence of our politicians.I'm frustrated and confused about the future and I see no light in the end of the tunnel.

I've already said that this is my opinion and yeah,I am not an economic guru or something.I'm just an average Joe saying his opinion right here.

However I couldn't agree more with your fifth argument.
Public sector is for the most part responsible about the Greek dept.
That's a long story but the thing that matters most is that the complicity of politicians with leaders of the labor unions have fiven the problem huge dimensions.
I can assure you that huge loads of money have been spent profusely to barricade our defense mechanisms but as it seems we gave ourselves submarines that do not function and planes that are unable to operate correctly.I hope you get the point.Ministers were funelling resources into their bank accounts sucking the country dry.
Welfare is another sad story which I'll not discuss right now!

Now you see why your arguments,even if are just and correct cannot apply to modern Greece.
In this point i thnk we need a miracle or a politician with supermans red cape.Or an intervention by god himself.!
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:26 AM   #686
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Re: Greek debt negotiation

turns out that if you keep kicking the can down the road the problem will go away



now maybe try to do something about the unemployment
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