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The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 237: Back to Court The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 237: Back to Court

07-19-2017 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjhender
Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but it's the part of politics I find fascinating when I can bring myself to ignore how important the underlying issue is.

If you're Dean Heller, what in the world do you do right now?

Option 1: Capitulate to Trump and vote yes on any Trumpcare bill that comes up. You get financial support but:

1. You face a strong challenge from your right in the primary for not being a good soldier and your opponent uses Trump's comments against you.
2. If you win, you face a general election against whoever and now have to defend yourself against a Democratic candidate that hammers you on the details of the bill in a state that Trump lost and probably end up losing your seat.

Option 2: Try to carve out a spot like McCain tried to claim as a maverick that goes against your own party. You lose financial support and:

1. You face a ferocious challenge from your right in the primary that you have a good chance to lose.
2. If you survive it, you have a chance to win over moderate republicans/democrats in the general claiming to be a bipartisan working for the people. OTOH you have a good chance to lose anyway as Trump's favorability craters.

Option 3: I dunno, thread the needle by voting against Trumpcare and for some other future bills? Vote for Trumpcare and against some future bills? Any other option seems like you get blasted from the right in the primary and from the left in the general.

Option 4: Plan your post Senate career realizing that if you don't lose in the primary then you will lose in the general election. The most realistic option.

I'm not a political strategist, but it looks to me like he's pretty much ****ed.
FYP
07-19-2017 , 04:21 PM
My understanding is Heller has been targeted by a bunch of attack ads from the right.
07-19-2017 , 04:31 PM
Hey, nothing stopping the guy from growing a pair and calling out the GOP insanity. If Cliven Bundy fan clubbers primary him out, there's always K Street.
07-19-2017 , 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by +rep_lol
i dont feel any sympathy for human scum
Either I haven't made myself clear through my posting in the past or you don't know what sympathy means. It could very well be the former because I don't post much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adios
FYP
07-19-2017 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Hey, nothing stopping the guy from growing a pair and calling out the GOP insanity. If Cliven Bundy fan clubbers primary him out, there's always K Street.
Of course, but that's probably never happening. It's mostly interesting to see which part of the election he loses in.
07-19-2017 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
The thing about the whole "they just care about tax cuts" while largely true and accurately describes say the GOP up until 2008 isn't wholly true now; since then there are more hardcore Ayn Rand acolyte *******s like Cotton and Cruz and Rand Paul that won't let the GOP pay for tax cuts with deficits and insist on poor people suffering to pay for it.
I don't think conservatives want poor people to suffer. Rather I think they want them to beg. That is why I believe that those who need government help would be more likely to get it if they feign gratefulness toward those who, in most cases, just got lucky.
07-19-2017 , 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjhender
Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but it's the part of politics I find fascinating when I can bring myself to ignore how important the underlying issue is.

If you're Dean Heller, what in the world do you do right now?

Option 1: Capitulate to Trump and vote yes on any Trumpcare bill that comes up. You get financial support but:

1. You face a strong challenge from your right in the primary for not being a good soldier and your opponent uses Trump's comments against you.
2. If you win, you face a general election against whoever and now have to defend yourself against a Democratic candidate that hammers you on the details of the bill in a state that Trump lost and probably end up losing your seat.

Option 2: Try to carve out a spot like McCain tried to claim as a maverick that goes against your own party. You lose financial support and:

1. You face a ferocious challenge from your right in the primary that you have a good chance to lose.
2. If you survive it, you have a chance to win over moderate republicans/democrats in the general claiming to be a bipartisan working for the people. OTOH you have a good chance to lose anyway as Trump's favorability craters.

Option 3: I dunno, thread the needle by voting against Trumpcare and for some other future bills? Vote for Trumpcare and against some future bills? Any other option seems like you get blasted from the right in the primary and from the left in the general.

I'm not a political strategist, but it looks to me like he's pretty much ****ed.
Option 4: Pull a Jim Jeffords and leave the GOP and say you'll be an independent who will caucus with the Democrats. Say something like, "This party has gone ****ing nuts. I've had enough; I must resist."

I don't know enough about Nevada politics to know how this would be received.
07-19-2017 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
I don't think conservatives want poor people to suffer. Rather I think they want them to beg. That is why I believe that those who need government help would be more likely to get it if they feign gratefulness toward those who, in most cases, just got lucky.
I mean most of them are thankful for government assistance, I know I was. I think you mean some symbolic public thankfulness, perhaps falling to their knees and prostrating as those higher on the hierarchy pass.
07-19-2017 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReasonableGuy
Cite for bolded?
Here's my lazy cite. Start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...hcare_outcomes

Health outcome are roughly equal between the two countries.

In Canada there are very limited ways that you can pay for improved health care. You can't pay for faster tests/specialist appointments/surgeries/etc in most cases.

I think we can agree that in the US there is a large disparity in care between the well-off and the poor.

So, lazily, if you accept that health outcomes are roughly equal between the two countries, there's limited variation in health outcome by financial status in Canada (at least due to health care), there's large disparity in outcomes by financial status in the US.... you're left with poor people have worse outcomes in the US and rich people have better outcomes.

I'm pretty sure I've read actual studies detailing the disparity in the US, but couldn't find them in my 5 minutes of googling.
07-19-2017 , 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
I don't think conservatives want poor people to suffer. Rather I think they want them to beg. That is why I believe that those who need government help would be more likely to get it if they feign gratefulness toward those who, in most cases, just got lucky.
I think they just don't care and only care about themselves.

It's basically the same reason almost nobody in this forum is pushing for significant humanitarian intervention around the globe or true 'universal' healthcare for everyone on earth. Our circle of caring is just a bit larger than Republicans.
07-19-2017 , 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebooger
Option 4: Pull a Jim Jeffords and leave the GOP and say you'll be an independent who will caucus with the Democrats. Say something like, "This party has gone ****ing nuts. I've had enough; I must resist."

I don't know enough about Nevada politics to know how this would be received.
Good option. I didn't leave the party, the party left me is another way to put it.
07-19-2017 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjhender
Either I haven't made myself clear through my posting in the past or you don't know what sympathy means. It could very well be the former because I don't post much.
i know your political leanings, you seem like a solid dude. was just making a general comment re: "sucks for him"
07-19-2017 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by +rep_lol
i know your political leanings, you seem like a solid dude. was just making a general comment re: "sucks for him"
Yeah, I hear ya. It's similar to a situation like you hear a couple talking. One says, "What is my most unattractive feature?" The other says, "X". You walk by thinking, "Whoa boy they're screwed." I don't feel bad for the person answering but I know what's coming.
07-19-2017 , 06:37 PM
They have these things called 'deductibles.' Very few people know about this. I'm starting to hear this term more and more.....
07-19-2017 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReasonableGuy
Cite for bolded?
I don't doubt that he's right, but I imagine the cut-off is somewhere around the 85th percentile and rising. As in, around 85% of the people in the US receive worse healthcare than Canadians, while only about 15% receive better.
07-19-2017 , 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Hey, nothing stopping the guy from growing a pair and calling out the GOP insanity. If Cliven Bundy fan clubbers primary him out, there's always K Street.
But the best way to prepare for a career in K street is to give the donors what they want now with understanding that they will funnel money to the new business you plan to start a year or so in which your primary job duty is to shill on their behalf. Not only are the immediate cash benefits wonderful, as a walking avatar of corporate influence and corruption it makes you much more effective in your job of convincing still sitting Congressmen of the rewards of toeing the corporate line.
07-19-2017 , 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt217
I don't doubt that he's right, but I imagine the cut-off is somewhere around the 85th percentile and rising. As in, around 85% of the people in the US receive worse healthcare than Canadians, while only about 15% receive better.


The data definitely doesn't back this up (see the link I posted earlier). A large number of people get roughly equivalent care.

If I had to guess it would probably be something more like 20 worse, 60 equal, 20 better (obviously pulled right out of my ass, but you get the idea).
07-20-2017 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado
I think they just don't care and only care about themselves.

It's basically the same reason almost nobody in this forum is pushing for significant humanitarian intervention around the globe or true 'universal' healthcare for everyone on earth. Our circle of caring is just a bit larger than Republicans.
Is this in reference to something specific ITT or elsewhere?
07-20-2017 , 07:55 AM
Team Trump Used Obamacare Money to Run PR Effort Against It

http://www.thedailybeast.com/team-tr...ads-against-it
07-20-2017 , 07:59 AM
Obamacare may have the flu and need some fluids and rest, but Trump is holding a pillow over it's face yelling, "It's such a shame the condition is terminal!" Call it extreme hospice.
07-20-2017 , 09:24 AM
What I don't understand about the whole Obamacare thing from a GOP perspective...

Either the Congress fixes Obamacare

OR

It devolves so terribly that the population demands public option/single payer.

Why does the GOP risk the latter? They can fix Obamacare and prevent public option for a generation. Even if I totally buy the idea that all they care about is removing the ACA taxes for the rich... why do they risk any chance of Single Payer if they could just shore up ACA?

I don't understand from a game theory perspective.
07-20-2017 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by awval999
They can fix Obamacare
How?
07-20-2017 , 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebooger
How?
It's complicated, you wouldn't understand.
07-20-2017 , 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5ive
Is this in reference to something specific ITT or elsewhere?
It started with DVaut and Sklansky's comments around Republicans wanting tax cuts and their views on the poor. Sklansky said that he thought Republicans wanted poor people to beg.

My response is that Republicans don't care about poor people at all. They just care about tax cuts and everything else is irrelevant.

The bolded was more that we all want "tax cuts" (or various 'luxury' services and no tax increases on the middle class) and we don't particularly care that that money could instead be used for very significant humanitarian good in places around the world.

Edit: Reading DVaut's comments again, I don't disagree with them. Sklansky is the one that inserted the idea that the Republicans are thinking about the poor at all. DVaut was just pointing out that the poor are the ones that suffer for the Republicans tax cuts. Which is obviously true.

      
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