I disagree. I think people are close to ready. Especially if you can offer them a lower deductible. High deductibles may have been new and exotic in 2016. And they weren't all at $5k yet.

People need to go through the second half a year of putting off health care so they can cram it all into the next calendar year - before they actually understand high deductibles - imo.

Guys, grizy has solved it! If only the Democrats could come up with some sort of healthcare reform that was market-based, the Republicans would join in on the bipartisan effort to sell it to their base.

I wonder how this would work? Perhaps the government could create some sort of an exchange with minimal requirements as to the quality of the plans. Then health insurance companies could sell their plans there. Then the government could provide poor people with a little subsidy to help offset the costs.

Yes, that should do it. That's the market-based solution that the GOP will be happy to join in on selling as a bipartisan solution.

Now what will we call it? How about the Affordable Care Act? Either that, or we can let the GOP name it... I think they'd call that the Anti-American Socialized Death Panel Act.

Like, imagine being a human being who's been alive for at least the last 10 years, who pays enough attention to politics to post on a political forum and who thinks that the only thing stopping Democrats from getting Republican support on healthcare reform is not offering a market-based solution.

must admit i would ****ing hate the massive hassle of obamacare shenanigans. so much better to not have to worry about deductibles or individual mandates or any of that crap

Interestingly the children's hospital I work at demands all staff - clinical and otherwise - be non smokers. Not that they refrain from smoking on hospital grounds, that they don't smoke at all ever! They screen for nicotine during their pre-hire drug screening lol

First off, you should caveat all of this with the fact that you personally want poor people to die. That's your moral principle re: health care policy. So every piece of advice you give us on how to prevent poors from dying should be taken with a grain of salt.

Secondly, by "something that GOP can sell as "market based" reform" do you mean ****ing Obamacare?

One way to start that conversation would be for you to honestly state your personal reasons for opposing UHC.

Again, if supporting UHC is so politically dangerous, it's a little weird that people who clearly oppose it are afraid to say so. We can repeat that process on the ****ing debate stage, guys!

Idk about you but I always hear 'socialism' and 'bazillion dollars'.

Do you personally oppose it?

No? Just sharing my experiences to save you time as some twist on one or both of those things is guaranteed to be what you hear from anyone denouncing UHC, at least IMHO.

OK but like, that wasn't the question

The law passed and uninsured rates are way lower than prior to the law.

We got ways to go but we cannot just brush aside what ACA/Obamacare has done for the healthcare in the US. I believe it is an irreversible first step toward UHC in some form.

I even believe AC as it exists today, or at most with some minor modifications, is capable of achieving UHC (like 95+% coverage) within 10 years.

Huh let's check out literally a random grizy post about Obamcare from 2013

Again, never forget that your politics and solely your politics make you a completely unserious person deserving of mockery, scorn, and worse. Shut the **** up

You said the Dems should do a market-based solution because the GOP would support it. The Dems already DID a market-based solution and here's what the GOP has done:

1. Fight it tooth and nail.
2. Make up lies about it to fear-monger (death panels, socialist takeover, etc).
3. Attack it from every angle legislatively to repeal it.
4. Attack it in the courts.
5. Attack it with the executive branch.
6. Lie and claim to protect portions of it, while still fighting to repeal all of it by any means necessary.

So, show me the part where the GOP is selling their base/their donors/themselves on a market-based solution to healthcare.

The Republican Party has NO interest in any improvements to the healthcare system in America, and Democrats' strategy should be entirely based on what the best system is that they can propose that will help them get elected and that they can get passed. There should be zero consideration given to getting Republican politicians on board, or to what the Republicans will say about whatever they come up with... because whether they propose something market-based (like they already did) or true single payer, the GOP will call it a socialist takeover the likes of which the world has never seen which will lead to grandma getting death paneled and Obama and Hillary playing rock, paper scissors to see who gets to give her the lethal injection.

There will be never be any help from the Republican Party on this issue unless they've been so curb stomped in elections that the Democrats have the numbers to push single payer through on party lines, in which case they should tell the GOP to kindly **** off and enjoy their new healthcare.

It’s not just about GOP. It’s also about more moderate Dems.

The fact Obamacare is working undoubtedly contributed to McCain’s thumb down as well.

Obamacare (including Medicaid expansion part) also got some help from Republican governors. It is at least in part thanks to these governors that millions more got coverage... millions more that have accepted healthcare as a right thanks to Obamacare whether they like to admit it or not.

Grizy: Dems should try something market-based so Republicans will support it.
Me: They did that, Republicans said it was socialist death panels.
Grizy: Some Republican governors helped with the Medicaid expansion.

Me, now: Oh, you mean the great market-based healthcare phenomenon known as... Medicaid?

By helped he means "didn't always turn down, and also sometimes turned into worse-than-Medicaid-but-better-than-nothing corrupt public-private partnerships." It's like, man, you're describing the events of the relatively recent past here bro. You can't just make up **** like "GOP governors helped Obamacare" when you're describing the events of 2015 like people are just gonna nod their heads and say "oh yes grizy very good point and such a bright young boy".

Is healthcare a right, grizy?

You're just arguing against some phantom position I don't actually possess.

I didn't say some "market based" position is how to convince the GOP. I cited it as a potential excuse for them to "sell" it, not even to support it. You need to give the GOP an excuse to just let the legislation pass AND you need them to actually administer the law on the state level and when it's their turn in Congress.

You're starting from a position that it's impossible to get any help at all from the GOP. In reality, if the GOP is 100% not helping at all, the laws just won't get administered in the deep red states, not without protracted court fights anyway.

Keep electing Tories you’ll get here eventually

Poor people smoke little cigars because they are cheaper.

Did you experience the last 20 years at all? This is the only reasonable assumption. Anything else is total fantasy land. You have to acknowledge reality before you can work to change it. The GOP are universally evil people who want poor people to die in the streets. That is a fact. We need to start from that assumption before we are able to fix anything. The can be no compromise, there are 0 moderate republicans who can be won over. We need to ride roughshod over them in the quest to improve people's lives.

lol grizy. concerned about "selling" the idea of UHC to republicans when anyone with half a brain knows we're working towards UHC in spite of republicans

Republicans want insurance companies to charge you as much as they like and cover as little and play all the fun preexisting coverages games they could before.

That's what they want. It's not what they say they want, but it's what what their actions indicate they want.

The bogleheads threads on Obamacare are hilarious. It’s a bunch of right wingers who pride themselves on being practical; this issue makes their heads explode from cognitive dissonance overload.

Obama to Republicans: Hey guys, good news, looks like the Blue Dogs are blocking public option - so we're gonna have to go with Romneycare as the ACA. This should make you happy right since it's your plan that you were still publicly expressing support for as late as 2015?

Republicans for the next 8 years:


grizy: come on guys, give compromise a chance.

That grizy post is just amazing. Like, there are no words.