Why should anyone give a **** about a definition of "hate" that makes a distinction between being fine with a certain group of people so long as they are "in their place" and (the largely imaginary caricature of) being actually angry at the presence any black people.

Yo, let me tell you some people who were pretty OK with the presence of black people: slave owners. Is it really all that important to distinguish that they don't "hate" black people, as long as those black people don't have personal autonomy?

The left wing case for giving Trump the wall:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/...on-immigration

A good piece outlining the disastrous immigration plans put forward by the GOP hardliners, and why the best way to stop any of those things from happening is to play to Trump's ego and give him the wall but none of the other stuff.

Yeah but Schumer offered up the wall, Trump snap-agreed and then Miller/Kelly slapped his little hand and so no deal?

Wow. This is a completely unnecessary response to good news for your side, entirely irrelevant, and obviously wrong. A surprising trifecta of fail.


Plus it's not just members of the military that support the military. It's the main identity of the party.

The article goes into this. The Dems offered him a small down payment towards the wall. The article proposes fully funding the wall in return for progressive immigration priorities. The idea being that Donald Trump cares more about a racist monument to himself than meaningfully moving policy closer to a white ethnostate. Imo, that is a very compelling point.

No it isn't. Not any more.

"Harm" as in getting expelled from the US?

I agree it makes sense if they can get enough for it. A great negotiator like Trump could now demand the full amount then declare great final MAGA when Schumer capitulates. Trouble is Miller/kelly are watching over this like hawks.

I think Cotton/Perdue/that TX guy Goldblatte or whatever let Trump know in the nicest way possible that he needs to do what they want with immigration if he wants to keep his base, not sure how true that is though.

So I think hoodwinking Trump with wall for Dem immigration policy probably won't work. His advisors are just way too hip to his stupidity and would cut it off. But yes, if he could get away with it, he absolutely would do it. Not like he gives a **** about anything but erecting a monument for himself.

Trump only listens to his advisors so much. The Dems just have to be patient. Dude won't be able to go 2 weeks w/o golfing.

David:

For once I totally agree with your observation.

It was the annual White House Correspondents dinner back in 2011 or 2012. (Obama begins skewering Trump around the 3:10 mark of this video.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8TwRmX6zs4

Trump is not the type to laugh along with or take a joke - especially when he is the butt of the joke. You can almost see the steam rising out of his ears as Obama went on and the crowd continued laughing. The reaction of the people sitting at Trump's table was especially telling - as if they were all expecting Trump to jump out of his chair and charge the dias in an effort to get his hands around President Obama's neck. (Some things are visceral - it's like spotting a tell at the poker table.)

I was watching that dinner live on C-SPAN. Watching, I had the sense that Trump was thinking, at that very moment while the sound of laughter was ringing in his ears: "OK Barack, when I'm President I'm going to tear down and reverse everything you've accomplished - starting with Obamacare!" Trump probably feels, to this day, that was the worst public humiliation he has ever had to endure. Memories of that evening are likely why Mr. Trump decided to skip the 2017 White House Correspondents dinner - he just couldn't handle another public humiliation administered by a late night comedian. President Obama would probably have been wiser to let it go and not even acknowledge Trump's presence, but you really can't blame him. As for Trump, he brought it on himself ... (Other than pure hatred, I've never understood why Trump felt it was his duty, his goal in life, to try and prove Obama was born in Kenya.)

Most career politicians never forget (or forgive) a slight - real or imagined. From their perspective "public service" is a motto only believed by the truly naïve. You only have to read Shakespeare's tragedies, especially Macbeth, to realize how most pols view their profession. They see politics as blood sport. Getting even (and settling scores) is just part of the game. I can't blame President Obama for getting in his licks that night, but watching his accomplishments being systematically dismantled [by Trump] is part of the price he's paying for having poked fun at Trump that night. Obama got his revenge that night, but at a very high price. David Frum has pointed out that it will take "a generation" to undo all the damage Trump is doing.

http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2018/01/...-frum-on-trump

Trump may have already decided, before that dinner, that he was going to run for President in 2016, but what happened that night sealed it.

Cheese:

It will be interesting if Democrats decide to go ahead and give Trump his wall in exchange for all the protections they are seeking as outlined in the article. But then, Trump being Trump, at the last minute he'll tell Schumer and Pelosi there is one more condition: The deal is off unless they agree to drop the Trump-Russia congressional investigations and stop Mueller in his tracks.

I'm torn here. On the one hand, Sklansky is probably correct that "hate" is the wrong word and something like "disdain" would be far more accurate.

On the other hand, you guys are right that this both doesn't matter and that it is obvious what you mean when you say "hate".

It seems like a good argument.

Yeah, I largely agree. Let the wall be a slow farce. Strip funding in 2018 or something.

The just punishment for Trump’s deliberate tearing down of everything Obama did would be to have to witness all his major accomplishments get torn down, even if literally.

+1 to giving him a solid gold (but still transparent, very transparent) wall with his name all over it in exchange for things that matter.

The problem isn't Trump. Reportedly he was willing to make a deal with Schumer. That's why Schumer wanted to meet with him alone. Kelly nixed the deal and McConnell and Ryan are saying that if the budget includes an immigration deal that isn't 100% Republican wants with no Democrat wants won't be considered by the chambers.

Trump, ironically, is being the bipartisanship deal maker for what little he grasps of the situation, he's just so incompetent that his party and supposed underlings are overriding him.

The whole reason we are in this mess is because Republicans said they wanted to help Dreamers so Democrats were goaded into putting them on the table. Now all signs point to Republicans actively wanting Dreamers deported so there never should have been an immigration option on the table at all.

Yeah, the real issue is that just giving the wall and not other ghastly outcomes is not on the table, because the GOP congresscritters aren't so stupid.

What’s it called when you don’t feel any humanity towards them while at the same time you actively work the levers of the government to cause them harm?

It's called being an American! Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and stop expecting handouts and entitlements. #MAGA #MyOrangeDaddyKnowsBest

Turtle says no to the nuclear option. These GOP clowns really painted themselves into a corner didn't they? A blue wave comes if they screw over DACA and CHIP. Yet, the deplorables turn if they concede.

Problem is trump has already rejected stuff like that and literally nobody knows what he would accept and this point. Also President Kelly has final say on all deals.

Seems like Trump is the problem for being the weakest POTUS in history if his Chief if Staff can nix deals he's already made.

Yes, the best way out seems to be to agree to a wall in exchange for important items such as CHIP, DACA, sensible immigration policies, etc.

Promise that Trump's name will be plastered all over the wall in huge letters. Promise that the wall will be very big. Very very big. Promise that the wall will be transparent. Very very transparent. So transparent that the wall will be essentially invisible.

Come back six months later (having done nothing of course) and say the bigly transparent wall has been completed.