Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2011, 01:28 PM   #151
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
And my problem with requiring people to show ID (aside from the fact that 25% of the population can't live up to it) is that my grandfather went to war with a nation that required every citizen to carry their papers and present them to the police/SS/KGB upon demand. His generation didn't want to live in a place like that and neither do I, and yet now fast forward 50 years and the right wing is trying to sneak that very thing in. The amazing thing to me is just how rapidly everyone is falling for it.
I don't buy that 25% of the population is unable to obtain a DL or state ID; modify that to 'can't or won't' and it seems more right to me.

Both of my grandfathers also fought in WWII (one in each theater) and comparing having to show a driver's license when you get pulled over for speeding to having to show your papers so you don't get ovened for being a Jew is somewhat of a stretch (and a stretch that I am quite sure neither of them would make themselves, were they still alive).

However, if the reality of the AZ law is in fact that cops just randomly roust brown people to see if they are illegal, then yes, I have a problem with that. My understanding of the opposition to that law was that the left was making a similar sort of "slippery slope" argument as you seem to be making here, although I could certainly be wrong.

Quote:
BTW, don't you think it would be wise for the police to station an officer with a computer at each polling station, then run the names of everyone who shows up to vote. Originally that could be just to see if they have 'outstanding warrants', of course, but give it time and see where it leads.
That is a good point, but where else exactly could it lead beyond that? Gas chambers instead of voting booths for registered Democrats/non-evangelicals/pro-choicers (I fit two out of those three criteria btw)? Is there even a large population of petty criminals that still rock the vote?
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:33 PM   #152
[Phill]
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
[Phill]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52,513
Re: The GOP war on voting

Driving is a choice. Voting is a right.

He isnt talking about having ID when driving. Clearly.
[Phill] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:37 PM   #153
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

So then what exactly are we talking about here? Spell it out for me, since I'm obviously not operating on your level.
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:42 PM   #154
[Phill]
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
[Phill]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 52,513
Re: The GOP war on voting

Having "papers" to perform basic rights of citizens, namely voting, is a key part of the slippery slope argument.
[Phill] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:45 PM   #155
Low Key
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Low Key's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Thank you, Florida
Posts: 33,331
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by grizy View Post
The military is so overwhelmingly Republican Democrats have consistently fell on whichever side that tended to disenfranchise absentee ballots for a long time.

Anything from not counting their votes at all for local elections if they are stationed overseas (arguing they aren't current local residents essentially), mailing ballots out at last possible moment (even illegally late), earlier deadlines and just about everything else they can come up with to count fewer military votes.

They do this so often it's not even news anymore.
thinly-veiled "i couldn't find any links to support this point of view" hand-waving..

But yes, I'm pretty certain that both parties have, in the past, tried to stop the counting of absentee ballots. I remember Dems making a big stink about Repubs not wanting to count military ballots from D counties in FL '00.
Low Key is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:52 PM   #156
dinopoker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
dinopoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Must...bet...more!
Posts: 7,628
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
I don't buy that 25% of the population is unable to obtain a DL or state ID; modify that to 'can't or won't' and it seems more right to me.

Both of my grandfathers also fought in WWII (one in each theater) and comparing having to show a driver's license when you get pulled over for speeding to having to show your papers so you don't get ovened for being a Jew is somewhat of a stretch (and a stretch that I am quite sure neither of them would make themselves, were they still alive).

However, if the reality of the AZ law is in fact that cops just randomly roust brown people to see if they are illegal, then yes, I have a problem with that. My understanding of the opposition to that law was that the left was making a similar sort of "slippery slope" argument as you seem to be making here, although I could certainly be wrong.
And here is the nuance, bro: while you're right that there is a segment of the population that won't get ID as opposed to can't, what about those who believe that they shouldn't have to? I happen to be one of those. Well in an ordinary universe those who feel that way might have been able to band together and elect a politician who agreed with them to oppose those who share your view.

Except, if your side has its way that won't happen, because you've managed to deny those people their VOTE! Your ID requirement just went from being logistical to political.

Quote:
That is a good point, but where else exactly could it lead beyond that? Gas chambers instead of voting booths for registered Democrats/non-evangelicals/pro-choicers (I fit two out of those three criteria btw)? Is there even a large population of petty criminals that still rock the vote?
how about "questioning" for anyone of Hispanic or Arab descent? Is it so hard to see that happening in, say, Maricopia county, AZ?
dinopoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 01:54 PM   #157
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

To what other basic human rights are you concerned this policy could extend?

I guess I can grant that there probably aren't too many illegal aliens that are eager to go vote (or even can, since you need a SSN), so it's obviously not an issue of ensuring only citizens vote.

I can't believe I am posting this much about this issue; compared to the ID when voting issue, I think it's orders of magnitude more ridiculous that people think it's reasonable that 25% of the population "can't"* get a DL or state ID.

Last edited by Montecore; 10-10-2011 at 02:05 PM. Reason: *Obv "won't" as per dino et al is different.
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #158
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
And here is the nuance, bro: while you're right that there is a segment of the population that won't get ID as opposed to can't, what about those who believe that they shouldn't have to? I happen to be one of those. Well in an ordinary universe those who feel that way might have been able to band together and elect a politician who agreed with them to oppose those who share your view.

Except, if your side has its way that won't happen, because you've managed to deny those people their VOTE! Your ID requirement just went from being logistical to political.
So you don't have government ID, or you just feel you shouldn't have to? Are you American, and do you drive? How old are you, and how old were you by the time this opnion formed? I find this fascinating (bro).

Being the politics forum, I know you are all inherently picturing me as an evil right winger, but I'm really not . . . My opinion has no evil political machinations lying underneath of it. I just don't think it's unreasonable that people should carry official ID, other obviously do; that's all.

Quote:
how about "questioning" for anyone of Hispanic or Arab descent? Is it so hard to see that happening in, say, Maricopia county, AZ?
I have a problem with that, and it's quite obviously wrong. If the law is being misapplied in that way then it needs to stop. That some people feel the slippery slope argument is reason enough to not have laws like the AZ immigration law seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable stance to take; I just don't happen to share that opinion.
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 02:44 PM   #159
dinopoker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
dinopoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Must...bet...more!
Posts: 7,628
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
So you don't have government ID, or you just feel you shouldn't have to? Are you American, and do you drive? How old are you, and how old were you by the time this opnion formed? I find this fascinating (bro).
I feel that if a person chooses to not have government ID in the USA that is their right and privilege and they should experience no real ill effects of living that way. I do personally carry ID, but only when I'm driving. If I'm just out on the street I don't.

Quote:
Being the politics forum, I know you are all inherently picturing me as an evil right winger, but I'm really not . . . My opinion has no evil political machinations lying underneath of it. I just don't think it's unreasonable that people should carry official ID, other obviously do; that's all.
Really, why?

What about if every baby born in the US was tattooed with a bar code identification. That would be even better from a logistical point of view, don't you think?

Sorry for the characterization, by the way. I'm sure you're not evil, just misguided


Quote:
I have a problem with that, and it's quite obviously wrong. If the law is being misapplied in that way then it needs to stop.
Except history shows that laws like that are almost always misapplied. That's why we speak out against them now, because if we let them take root then it becomes too late.
dinopoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 02:55 PM   #160
grizy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
grizy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Looking for Rush HU Poker
Posts: 15,529
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Key View Post
thinly-veiled "i couldn't find any links to support this point of view" hand-waving..

But yes, I'm pretty certain that both parties have, in the past, tried to stop the counting of absentee ballots. I remember Dems making a big stink about Repubs not wanting to count military ballots from D counties in FL '00.
Either that or I was just too lazy.

Googling shows Dems, in the past 12 months or so, on first page, falling on the side of tending to disenfranchise military personnel in Las Vegas, Hawaii and Illinois.
grizy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 02:55 PM   #161
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
Really, why?
I guess I just feel like I really don't have anything to hide/fear from the government, and there are plenty of instances where I need to show ID/confirm my identity. I don't find it to be particularly intrusive; I have already conceded I'd likely feel differently if I came from a different background.

[QUOTE]What about if every baby born in the US was tattooed with a bar code identification. That would be even better from a logistical point of view, don't you think?{/QUOTE]

Now who's taking things to illogical extremes? If you can't see the difference between carrying a card in your wallet with your address and photo with having the goverment turn you into Agent 47 then I don't know what to say. Obviously we see different degrees of slipperiness to the slope.

Quote:
Sorry for the characterization, by the way. I'm sure you're not evil, just misguided
I'm sure I'll get more liberal as I get older -- that's how it usually works, right?

Quote:
Except history shows that laws like that are almost always misapplied. That's why we speak out against them now, because if we let them take root then it becomes too late.
So the solution is to let illegal aliens roam freely throughout the country? How about developing a decent pathway for amnesty, which would restrict the need for laws like this in the first place?
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #162
dinopoker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
dinopoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Must...bet...more!
Posts: 7,628
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
So the solution is to let illegal aliens roam freely throughout the country? How about developing a decent pathway for amnesty, which would restrict the need for laws like this in the first place?
Hey I'm all in favor of that, but unfortunately that idea is being blocked by the same people trying to stifle everyone's right to vote. They want to build a giant wall first.
dinopoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 05:00 PM   #163
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,896
Re: The GOP war on voting

In general many people think the government needs to justify its intrusions into the lives of its citizens. Yeah, you can get an ID. But why are we making people get an ID? To combat the utterly non-existent scourge of voter fraud?

Like, nobody is fooled by that. If you tell me I need to jump through hoops to prevent a HORRIBLE THING that is pretty clearly not happening(and you don't even think is happening, and can't explain how it would happen, etc.), I'm going to figure out that you're up to something.

How many of you guys who are all "whats the big deal" have ever voted? Like, what anti-fraud measures do you think are currently at play?

What loophole is requiring photo ID closing?
FlyWf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 05:59 PM   #164
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Fly --

Not sure if your post was directed at me or not (there was a lot of royal "you" usage), but I'll briefly respond. As I've said before, my concern is less with voter fraud (since that isn't happening to the degree the right seems to be claiming) but more with the left painting getting an ID as an unreasonable, impossible request for the lower class. I have had conversations to this effect with a friend of a friend running for state office and I find the sort of classism that assumes poor people shouldn't be expected to do X for themselves because it's hard to be particularly odious.

That there is a significant subset of the no ID population that is ideologically opposed to it was not something I had ever considered, and even though I don't agree with the reasoning, obviously it's anyone's right to choose to forgo government issued ID.
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 06:14 PM   #165
FlyWf
It's the other way
 
FlyWf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: [ ] REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE
Posts: 54,896
Re: The GOP war on voting

Who has possibly painted getting an ID as an unreasonable or impossible request?

You're telling me it's easy, but you're not telling me why I should try to do it in the first place.
FlyWf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 06:15 PM   #166
dinopoker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
dinopoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Must...bet...more!
Posts: 7,628
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
Fly --

Not sure if your post was directed at me or not (there was a lot of royal "you" usage), but I'll briefly respond. As I've said before, my concern is less with voter fraud (since that isn't happening to the degree the right seems to be claiming) but more with the left painting getting an ID as an unreasonable, impossible request for the lower class. I have had conversations to this effect with a friend of a friend running for state office and I find the sort of classism that assumes poor people shouldn't be expected to do X for themselves because it's hard to be particularly odious.
BTW in case you missed it, in at least one state not only did the GOP administration pass an ID requirement for voting, but they also closed DMV offices in minority neighborhoods as well, not to mention also wording the legislation in such a way that student ID's wouldn't be accepted.
dinopoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 08:56 PM   #167
pvn
King Emeritus
 
pvn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: De-Green BruceZ for Great Justice
Posts: 66,187
Re: The GOP war on voting

See guys, if we just let the government implant these RFID chips in all citizens, these problems are all solved.
pvn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:28 PM   #168
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Finally someone understands what I"m saying!
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:43 PM   #169
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The radical left
Posts: 19,179
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore View Post
Finally someone understands what I"m saying!
I understand, but I think you are overlooking a fundamental concept that many people feel very strongly about, so strongly that is considered a question of constitutionality. Being a US citizen does not require one to carry a piece of paper stating such.

It's not a question of how easy or practical it is to get ID. I am a US citizen. I don't ****ing need ID for my fundamental rights.
zikzak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:51 PM   #170
suzzer99
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
suzzer99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on top of the bell curve
Posts: 82,707
Re: The GOP war on voting

Waiting for someone to answer fly's question. How does having an ID even prevent voter fraud? Please lay out one specific scenario.

How about this as another reasonable solution to the problem? If you don't bring ID, an asterix goes next to your vote, which either side can use to investigate possible voter fraud after the fact. There is absolutely zero reason republicans should have a problem with that, barring the obvious that the reason they're doing this has nothing to do with voter fraud.
suzzer99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:53 PM   #171
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinopoker View Post
BTW in case you missed it, in at least one state not only did the GOP administration pass an ID requirement for voting, but they also closed DMV offices in minority neighborhoods as well,
As I've said before, this is very, very bad, and completely indefensible.

Quote:
not to mention also wording the legislation in such a way that student ID's wouldn't be accepted.
I don't have a problem with this . . . Most student IDs are just laminated pieces of paper with little to no personal information on it (although I guess maybe that's why most of you like it in lieu of government IDs).
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:57 PM   #172
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
Who has possibly painted getting an ID as an unreasonable or impossible request?

You're telling me it's easy, but you're not telling me why I should try to do it in the first place.
I never said anyone ITT did, I said I've had conversations with others regarding this specific topic who framed it that way; I know you know I didn't say that though.

For the millionth time, I come from the school of why not wrt this issue, as I never considered what the problem was before this thread. Obviously you guys have beaten it into me now, and I understand your side (although no one ITT has specifically said that they themselves don't have an ID, interestingly enough).
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 09:58 PM   #173
zikzak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
zikzak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The radical left
Posts: 19,179
Re: The GOP war on voting

When I lived in VT in the early 90's, my driver's license - like everybody else in the state - did not have my picture on it. Somehow, the state managed to function just fine.

Not sure how relevant that is to the discussion, but I thought it was kinda cool.
zikzak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 10:04 PM   #174
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Waiting for someone to answer fly's question. How does having an ID even prevent voter fraud? Please lay out one specific scenario.
Is anyone ITT even currently arguing that it does?

Quote:
How about this as another reasonable solution to the problem? If you don't bring ID, an asterix goes next to your vote, which either side can use to investigate possible voter fraud after the fact.
Works for me.

Quote:
There is absolutely zero reason republicans should have a problem with that, barring the obvious that the reason they're doing this has nothing to do with voter fraud.
I'm sure you're right.
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 10:05 PM   #175
Montecore
Snitch/3/1 Disciple
 
Montecore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: On my fainting couch
Posts: 63,722
Re: The GOP war on voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
When I lived in VT in the early 90's, my driver's license - like everybody else in the state - did not have my picture on it. Somehow, the state managed to function just fine.

Not sure how relevant that is to the discussion, but I thought it was kinda cool.
If only you had lived in New Hampshire, I could have quoted your post and snarkily replied "Live Free or Die". "Freedom and Unity" doesn't have quite the same ring to it given the situation . . .
Montecore is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online