Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-06-2018, 05:22 PM   #26
TheHip41
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TheHip41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 26,049
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
Fly heard about the suicides on the TEEEVEEEE and now he is an expert.


Just tap out already man
TheHip41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 09:22 PM   #27
RainierWolfcastle
adept
 
RainierWolfcastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kunshan, Jiangsu
Posts: 993
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
Just tap out already man
Another poster who apparently has something to say but can't be bothered to articulate it.

At what wage is it appropriate to hire people in poor countries?
RainierWolfcastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 09:43 PM   #28
rugby
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,616
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Right. Can we move on from this. You are both being dumb, and spending time arguing over stuff you clearly agree on.

1. Obviously jobs in poor countries are good. The low wage/exploitation wording was poor.

2. Also obviously. Thats not a get out of jail card for every exploitative practice. Where you draw the line is however a matter of debate.

3. Setting up an industrial park with a goal of creating 60k jobs is certainly a worthy goal.

4. Development organisations shoild be able to do more than one thing at once. However how they choose to spend their money is certainly fair debate.

5. The fact the industrial parks seems to have massively underdelivered is also deserving of criticism and debate.

Do either of you disagree with any of this? If no, lets have the actual debate on the interesting parts where you disagree, like whether or not any of this comes close to being illegal
rugby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 09:46 PM   #29
Trolly McTrollson
Under your bridges
 
Trolly McTrollson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winesburg, Ohio
Posts: 24,764
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
Another poster who apparently has something to say but can't be bothered to articulate it.
The position you're putting forward is that any job marginally better than working in a rice paddy or a salt mine isn't exploitative. That seems like a weird take to a lot of us.
Trolly McTrollson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 09:54 PM   #30
iron81
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
iron81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Resident Spork
Posts: 17,580
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

#ImWithRainier

If the factory job is marginally better than working the rice paddy, good has been done. QED
iron81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 09:57 PM   #31
RainierWolfcastle
adept
 
RainierWolfcastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kunshan, Jiangsu
Posts: 993
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Because it isn't. You can't simply disregard markets and expect companies to pay western middle class wages to people in poor countries.

If you want to talk about specific practices that are immoral or exploitative, fine. Calling the hiring of workers at wages that leave them better off than they would be otherwise "exploitative" removes any real meaning from that word.
RainierWolfcastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:15 PM   #32
prana
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
prana's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,543
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
Calling the hiring of workers at wages that leave them better off than they would be otherwise "exploitative" removes any real meaning from that word.
no
prana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:20 PM   #33
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 49,847
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
Because it isn't. You can't simply disregard markets and expect companies to pay western middle class wages to people in poor countries.

If you want to talk about specific practices that are immoral or exploitative, fine. Calling the hiring of workers at wages that leave them better off than they would be otherwise "exploitative" removes any real meaning from that word.
That's patently absurd. You're proposing that it's impossible to exploit someone who is given a choice. I'm not going to bother with obvious counter-examples, if you pursue that line you'll find yourself rightly called an apologist for all kinds of heinousness.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:22 PM   #34
Trolly McTrollson
Under your bridges
 
Trolly McTrollson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winesburg, Ohio
Posts: 24,764
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by iron81 View Post
#ImWithRainier

If the factory job is marginally better than working the rice paddy, good has been done. QED
If working in a rice paddy is marginally better than begging in the gutters, do we conclude that rice farmers aren't exploited?

Like, are any workers in the world actually exploited other than maybe sex slaves?
Trolly McTrollson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:26 PM   #35
TheHip41
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TheHip41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 26,049
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
If working in a rice paddy is marginally better than begging in the gutters, do we conclude that rice farmers aren't exploited?

Like, are any workers in the world actually exploited other than maybe sex slaves?


Sex slaves get room and board though.
TheHip41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:28 PM   #36
microbet
Solar Powered
 
microbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 49,847
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Can't find the last scene (rice planting) of The Seven Samuri.
microbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:38 PM   #37
DudeImBetter
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DudeImBetter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: From Banville, Permaland (x2)
Posts: 10,382
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
Because it isn't. You can't simply disregard markets and expect companies to pay western middle class wages to people in poor countries.

If you want to talk about specific practices that are immoral or exploitative, fine. Calling the hiring of workers at wages that leave them better off than they would be otherwise "exploitative" removes any real meaning from that word.
NOOB question: If somehow regulations existed ensuring multinationals had to pay $8/hr minimum to employees abroad, what would the most likely outcomes be?
DudeImBetter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:42 PM   #38
RainierWolfcastle
adept
 
RainierWolfcastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kunshan, Jiangsu
Posts: 993
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Factories exploit workers because the workers would be better off working jobs that are unavailable to them. Brilliant logic there.
RainierWolfcastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:46 PM   #39
RainierWolfcastle
adept
 
RainierWolfcastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kunshan, Jiangsu
Posts: 993
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by DudeImBetter View Post
NOOB question: If somehow regulations existed ensuring multinationals had to pay $8/hr minimum to employees abroad, what would the most likely outcomes be?
The outcome would be that a lot of people in the third world would lose their jobs and--according to the logic of certain posters--somehow be better off.
RainierWolfcastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:50 PM   #40
Max Cut
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Max Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: At direction of candidate
Posts: 9,173
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Can't find the last scene (rice planting) of The Seven Samuri.
Max Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:50 PM   #41
RainierWolfcastle
adept
 
RainierWolfcastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kunshan, Jiangsu
Posts: 993
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
If working in a rice paddy is marginally better than begging in the gutters, do we conclude that rice farmers aren't exploited?

Like, are any workers in the world actually exploited other than maybe sex slaves?
Its almost as if the world isn't a perfect place and some people don't have options that will provide them a western middle class salary.

Obviously the solution is to remove whatever their preferred employment option is.
RainierWolfcastle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 10:53 PM   #42
iron81
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
iron81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Resident Spork
Posts: 17,580
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
If working in a rice paddy is marginally better than begging in the gutters, do we conclude that rice farmers aren't exploited?

Like, are any workers in the world actually exploited other than maybe sex slaves?
I suggest you stop caring whether capitalists are making a profit or whether 3rd world factories meet western labor laws or however you are defining exploitation and start caring whether specific things people do help others.
iron81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 11:12 PM   #43
ecriture d'adulte
old hand
 
ecriture d'adulte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,411
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
The outcome would be that a lot of people in the third world would lose their jobs and--according to the logic of certain posters--somehow be better off.
I think there is someplace in between full on OHSA protections and western style union benefits and “my incredibly unsafe factory where people constantly get injured is ok because my employees would have to be human land mine detectors if they didn’t work for me.”
ecriture d'adulte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 11:37 PM   #44
David Sklansky
Administrator
 
David Sklansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,504
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
If working in a rice paddy is marginally better than begging in the gutters, do we conclude that rice farmers aren't exploited?

Like, are any workers in the world actually exploited other than maybe sex slaves?
The question should not be whether these people are exploited (they are) but rather whether it is a bad thing to exploit even when there would be no job if exploitation was disallowed and even when the worker is glad there is someone willing to exploit them. If I hate mowing my own lawn but am not willing to pay more than five dollars an hour to have someone else do it, am I doing something wrong if I put up a sign offering to pay that just in case there is someone who will take me up on it? Of course not.

But there are exceptions. Namely if the exploitation is demeaning to a whole group, including those who would decline to be exploited. "Midget Bowling" for instance, is wrong even if there are some small people who would accept the job.
David Sklansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 12:52 AM   #45
rugby
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,616
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Ffs. I thought all the retard free marketeers that read the first four chapters of econ 101 and then decided they knew enough were run out of here years ago.

Yes guys. If everyone has perfect information, access to enforceable contracts and makes rational decisions then yes, sweat shops are good and we dont need any further thinking.

Also quit with the straw man that the only options are rice fields, sweatshops or middle class wages.
rugby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 01:31 AM   #46
iron81
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
iron81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Resident Spork
Posts: 17,580
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugby View Post
Also quit with the straw man that the only options are rice fields, sweatshops or middle class wages.
It's only the first two unless you are counting emigration. Life sucks when you're poor.
iron81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 01:42 AM   #47
rugby
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4,616
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

You can have low wage factories with basic worker protections. Just because people would take worse, doesnt nake it okay.

30 people died in a fire in a call centre here in the philippines before christmas. Early days but pretty clear that fire regulations and checks were not followed.

That doesnt suddenly become okay because the workers chose the job willingly.
rugby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 01:46 AM   #48
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 37,867
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

I think the problem here is that "exploitation of low wage workers" can mean all kinds of things, many of which are legitimately terrible and some of which are not. I haven't read the Clinton links (obviously) so idk which is under discussion here.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 01:50 AM   #49
6ix
veteran
 
6ix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: What, drawn, and talk of peace?
Posts: 2,437
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierWolfcastle View Post
If you have something to say, say it.

It's in the other thread.

But considering you responded to 'Please proceed,' as in, go on, expound, et cetera with, 'If you have something to say, say it,' well, my hopes are not very high.
6ix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 01:52 AM   #50
iron81
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
iron81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Resident Spork
Posts: 17,580
Re: The Presidency of Donald J. Trump

That sounds like a problem the Phillipine government should handle. I don't see why they can't strike a balance between worker safety and development.
iron81 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online