present residents of European countries and their predecessors. You are asking them to sacrifice quality of life in order to fix externalities right? I am saying before you do so you have to account for positive externalities too, sum them up, and only if the total is negative you can ask for payment.

Why do you count such a 3rd rate country as Italy? Wouldn't the real economic engines like the US, UK and Germany have done just as well to include Peru in their economic success as Italy?

Solar panels, wind turbines and electric cars are not a sacrifice. Italy won't have to pay much for anyone. Your GDP per capita is about the same as Equatorial Guinea. Maybe YOU shouldn't worry so much about what WE in the rich countries decide to pay for.

But in case you don't know any of the history and why rich countries might be so much different than poor countries....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism

I wonder why when the Europeans conquered Africa they enslaved everyone and shipped them all over and when they conquered each other they just signed treaties, shuffled rulers, arranged new marriages and such.

You Italians were sure lucky that the Austrian Empire let you stay free, at least not enslaved, because you were white.

You see to forget how quickly northern italy through its institutions managed to succesfully implement the steps needed for industrialization. We share a lot with germany in the details of what allowed for quick and succesfull industrialization here.

Italy has one of the biggest internal differences in gdp per capita in the world.

We are already paying gasoline 6 eur per gallon (more than 1.5 euto per liter).

We have been milked dry for a long time even if you only take that into account.

The same is rougly true for gasoline prices in the rest of europe.

Gasoline taxes ALONE are much more than enough to say that we are already doing much more than our part in the "fight against emissions". Even if we didn't do anything else ever.

I think it is monstrous to ask europeans for ever more tax money to subsidize wind, solar panels etc (which i like as ideas, but i don't like we subsidize), before gasoline taxes are upped in the USA, and poor countries stop subsidizing fuel.

Pretty loud and clear that you hate Southern Italy. How about breaking up into two countries in order to free the Germanic half from being dragged down?

But then what do you do with the people with dark curly hair who live in the north?

Oh, I remember. You pay them to get sterilized.

There are more sicilians with blonde hairs than in the north, as a % of total population, because of normans invasion in sicily.

This has nothing to do with race and i wouldn't call nothern italy ethnic background as "germanic".

So by sharing a lot with Germany you mean that after your fascists tried to take over the world and the US, UK and Russia stopped you, the US charitably invested tons of money rebuilding?

Maybe we should have just spent all of that Marshall Plan money on people who didn't try to kill us, like maybe Mexico and Central America.

Lol? we are talking decades in the 1800 when we talk about industrialization.

With "sharing a lot with germany" i refer to:

1) city states being extremely relevant in the late middle ages, with their universities and their local guilds becoming institutionalized and generating high growth
2) having a plain that confers rapidity for transportation though rivers, and easy deployment of trains when they appeared
3) strong civil law and contract law institutions since time immemorial

etc etc.

Cultural and geographic similarities that led to similar development process in industrialization.

If it's not racist, why is it Europe you keep talking about? Why not talk about just a few counties? Or why not all of humanity? Lots of European countries made very small contributions to the industrial revolution. They rode coat tails because they are white.

Germany was a hundred years behind England in the industrial revolution. They got richer because Bismarck pioneered the perpetual industrial war economy. Most of Germany was 4th rate hermit kingdoms until then.

Because i live in europe and i see the political discourse in europe and i am saying that the left is lying blatantly in europe about the effects of climate change.

Topic is the environment right? in europe the left is lying in a disastrous way about the environment.

Then it becomes, with regards to CO2 emissions, *ONLY* a matter of "morals" which is *TOTALLY* different that it is in the best interests of european to avoid climate change or they will suffer directly great damage (Which is the leftist lie).

When it becomes about morals, other countries and so on it's not anymore an environmental thing, and we can discuss it elsewhere imo.

So can we agree that climate change , even in extreme scenario, WILL NOT DAMAGE THE EUROPEAN UNION in aggregate?

England was first, but northern italy and germany developed pretty soon.



This is 10 years before bismarck btw

He is just sad that Italy sucks so much recently. He falls in line with his government who blames everyone for the misery of Italy but themselves.

The problem with your talk about freedom and individuality is that you can have all that as long as you dont harm anyone else. Its like smoking. You are still alowed to do that but not in locations where you might harm others. The same goes for the environment. You can do what you want if you dont harm others. Ruin Italy as much as you want but when your behaviour harms others (Africa, future flooding of coastal regions because of melting polar ice etc.) then your behaviour becomes a threat and should be stopped.

No. How much will temperatures and sea levels rise by 2150 or 2200 if emissions don't decrease? You were looking at the economic impact of how many degrees C? What makes you think it stops there?

Italy sucks because southern italy destroys our national averages and globs up productive north resources. We are being slowly killed by southern italy.

I blame our failure to ourselves, to our incapacity of cutting off the cancerous part of the country to let the decent part survive.

I'd like not to deteriorate our state even more taking on our shoulders other countries environmental problems.

And anyway quality of life in northern italy is extremely high, even with this constant bleeding to the south. Without the south we would be like top5 in the world

You gonna go full malthus on this? in 2100 we either have technological prowess of a kind that makes totally irrelevant whatever we choose to do now, or we have already imploded to pre-industrialization after some nuclear holocaust or similar apocalypse.

Do you really, seriously think history is going on pretty much linearly in the next 100-150 years??? that's exceptionally improbable.

So you do want to break up. And I suppose put up walls and have armed people guarding those walls. Freedom!

Regarding the harming, i already answered that you should account for everything before saying wether europe is harming the rest of the world or not.

Also europe isn't the only contributor of CO2 you know? and we ALREADY tax ourself to death for fossil fuels.

So our behavior can never be a threat bigger than china or usa behavior, and so until and unless they do their part as much as we are doing right now it is monstrous and immoral to ask anything more from us.

You obviously don't care about anyone other than yourself. How could you possibly care about the future?

Not pumping out greenhouse gas, cutting down all the rainforest, acidifying the ocean, depleting aquifers, losing biodiversity....etc...all things decent people try to do in order to leave a nice place for future generations. The greenhouse effect is simple physics and unless you already know how to solve it, it is, as you say, monstrous, to just keep pumping at full blast hoping for a future fix.

Hm no, i am OPEN BORDER. I just want to stop having to pay welfare for poorer people in other areas.

There is no reason at all a person living in milan should be morally charged with helping a person living in calabria, not more than he should help, if any, any poor people in the world.

This is the opposite of nationalism btw. It's exactly what happens when you destroy a nationalistic mentality. Without nationalism, there is no moral duty toward poor people in other areas.

Maybe you don't see it but when the left asks for money for puerto rico, that's nationalism in action, because they don't ask for the same amount of money to be spent for other countries in the area, on a per person basis.

The left doesn't ask for high taxes to pay for education of all people in the world am i right? they ask for high taxes to pay for education of their citizens.

That's nationalism in action, that's very similar to white supremacy.

The left is hardly monolithic.

If you're really such a pure libertarian, go ahead and emit all the CO2 you want, but keep every one of those molecules on your own property.