The Environment - Page 26 - Politics and Economics

lol, microbet is so clueless. Doesn't realize that the problem there is that we haven't privatized the oceans. That way if your trash ends up in someone else's patch of the Pacific, they can just sue you. Efficient system with no need for the horrors of collectivism.

06-11-2016 , 10:24 AM

#627

Shifty86

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Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,981

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Let the market decide what it wants to do with trash. If it decides it's best to just toss it in the ocean, then obviously that's the best way forward.

I meant let the market decide what energy source is best. If you think wind and solar are superior the best way to find out is to put it on market. Don't protest to have your competition shut down.

I still don't know what your issue with the trash is? Is it that fish are eating plastic or that billions of humans are being fed?

06-11-2016 , 11:32 AM

#628

Loki

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Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Unsure if slow pony

http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/10/11...e-change-study

Carbon dioxide trapped much faster than anticipated

06-11-2016 , 12:26 PM

#629

Huehuecoyotl

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,257

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

The problem is that the market for energy sources is primarily focused on efficiency, regulation, transportation, etc. If it destroys the planet isn't factored in a whole lot.

06-11-2016 , 12:33 PM

#630

microbet

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,713

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

If you don't count talking, posting, and voting, I haven't protested the competition, but I have helped put at least a thousand solar systems on the market.

My issue with pollution is that we can still feed everyone while putting out orders of magnitude less. The market is just a short sighted buffoon and doesn't care.

06-11-2016 , 03:40 PM

#631

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

You might want to look up market externalities.

06-11-2016 , 06:02 PM

#632

Imaginary F(r)iend

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I might do again a mini-rant about market-believers... I have no clue where people get this stuff, any economics professor left or right would tell that's a horrible idea.

06-11-2016 , 07:38 PM

#633

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

What about a YouTube economics "professor"?

06-11-2016 , 07:58 PM

#634

suzzer99

Save the Cheerleader, Save the World

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What about a Koch-approved Hayek-teaching economics professor?

06-11-2016 , 08:21 PM

#635

Shifty86

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Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,981

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

The problem is that the market for energy sources is primarily focused on efficiency, regulation, transportation, etc. If it destroys the planet isn't factored in a whole lot.

Yes it is. Energy companies spend billions on reclamation projects, marketing and donating to different things such as muesuems, zoo's, schools, community centers etc. Why do you think that is?

06-11-2016 , 08:29 PM

#636

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

Yes it is. Energy companies spend billions on reclamation projects, marketing and donating to different things such as muesuems, zoo's, schools, community centers etc. Why do you think that is?

Because they have a fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders and they spend pennies on the dollar hoodwinking suckers into allowing them to dump pollution into public spaces.

06-11-2016 , 08:44 PM

#637

suzzer99

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Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 99,984

The Chevron refinery in El Segundo is the second biggest refinery in the country and they pay like bottom 10% taxes. They recently built a little park in their chief champion on the City Board's district. A little leverage goes a long way.

Another time the mayor hired a financial advisor to look into ways the city could increase revenue. The advisor came back with the thing about the refinery paying no taxes. Advisor was fired soon after.

06-11-2016 , 08:56 PM

#638

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

The city of El Segundo is named after the refinery, the second refinery Standard Oil built in California.

Thanks to environmental regulations the refinery is much better than it was in the past. At one point the beach in front of the refinery was on fire for years and about 20 feet of "groundwater" under part of the refinery was jet fuel.

I sold and installed solar for a guy who retired as a manager after working there for about 35 years.

06-11-2016 , 09:23 PM

#639

suzzer99

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It's like some weird blast back to the past of company towns. They literally own all the beachfront property in El Segundo, and have their own private really nice park that is in use like 1 day a month. I can't imagine all the behind the scenes perks that go on.

06-11-2016 , 09:32 PM

#640

Shifty86

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Because they have a fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders and they spend pennies on the dollar hoodwinking suckers into allowing them to dump pollution into public spaces.

Right so it's not just about efficiency and transportation. Are public "green" companies immune from fiduciary responsibility?

06-11-2016 , 09:35 PM

#641

microbet

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Well, The beach front property is the refinery, then a power station, then as I'm sure you've smelled, the waste treatment plant. Sometimes I refer to the town as Smell Segundo.

06-11-2016 , 11:14 PM

#642

Huehuecoyotl

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

Right so it's not just about efficiency and transportation. Are public "green" companies immune from fiduciary responsibility?

They do but the fiduciary responsibility itself is a bit basic way of looking at the world. It's set up that way to keep things simple and honest even if maximizing return doesn't encompass all a company should be doing in society.

The major problem is because the CO2 emitted isn't part of the "price" of fuel we could turn the Earth into an oven with greenhouse gasses and the cost of gas could be chugging at an all time low.

06-12-2016 , 01:28 AM

#643

Loki

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I'm sure if shifty found out that a gallon of gas, which cost $2 at the pump, also cost about $40 to remove the CO2 released into the environment, he would be more than glad to pay $42 for that gallon of gas, because the free market will have spoken regarding the true cost of that gas.

06-12-2016 , 07:13 AM

#644

Money2Burn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

They been tried and found wantin'

NSFW for use of n-word:

06-12-2016 , 10:25 AM

#645

Shifty86

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

Why do we need to spend 40$ a gallon to remove CO2 that's realaased into the environment?

06-12-2016 , 10:50 AM

#646

Huehuecoyotl

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

Why do we need to spend 40$ a gallon to remove CO2 that's realaased into the environment?

It's linked to climate change

06-12-2016 , 11:03 AM

#647

Loki

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Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

That's a purely speculative number, of course. I'm just saying we're not pricing externalities into fuel prices the way we should. If I run a business that creates a lot of paper waste, I'm expected to pay for my trash to be hauled off at whatever the going rate is. If my business is burning gas, I should likewise be expected to pay for the removal/storage of my emissions from the environment.

Pretty massive handout from the government to trucking companies to not make them pay for cleaning up the byproducts of their doing business, no?

06-12-2016 , 03:38 PM

#648

Shifty86

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Energy companies pay to remove their waste, probably because it's actually physical and a lot of it can be recycled. CO2 makes up 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere.

06-12-2016 , 03:41 PM

#649

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty86

Energy companies pay to remove their waste, probably because it's actually physical and a lot of it can be recycled. CO2 makes up 0.04% of the earth's atmosphere.

Gases are physical too. What do you think they are?

If you think global warming is a hoax then just cut to the chase and say that in every post.

06-12-2016 , 05:38 PM

#650

Shifty86

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Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,981

Is it climate change or global warming? Not a hoaxer, of course the climate is changing. Whether it's man made or CO2 is the cause of that is certainly debatable.

30 years ago top scientist predicted billions would have died by now because of man made global warming. The opposite has happened, why do you think that is? And why do you think alarmist never seem to be happy or apologize for being super utterly wrong?

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