t;"dr This thread is motivated by many of the pathetic politards around here who want to build a straw man out of everyone who is skeptical of the government.

I will start by saying I am very far from someone who the average person would consider a conspiracy theorist. I find the vast majority of conspiracy theories I hear absurd and will be the first to reject them. I do believe in a dramatically smaller role of the central government in the US and I will be the first to say that there are plenty of people with whom I agree a lot on public policy who can be a bit cultish and prone to conspiracy theories. I have no issues rejecting what I consider to be the absurd or step away when I feel too much of a group think environment is occurring. The reality is, within all political affiliations you will find people married to their crew like it is a religion and you will find others who are more reasonable.

With all of that said, I would argue the people attacking every small government person as a conspirtard or whatever other pathetic and hollow attack they like to use are the truly naive fools on here. While I agree next to never on the vast majority of the conspiracy theories I read among the people with whom I share a similar political affiliation, I do have a respect and understanding for the psychology that brought them to this place. The reality is that you have to be a complete idiot to actually trust the government. To openly accept what politicians say as fact and to blindly believe that they act on the same principles they preach is just crazy. When presented with the historical reality, to not be highly skeptical of what the hell is really going on is to be totally ignorant.

I have watched the political discourse for my entire adult life (I am no spring chicken). To oversimplify, I have watched election after election as the Republicans espouse the word freedom and free markets and claimed the standing as the party of fiscal responsibility. I have watched over and over as Democrats preach the virtues of civil liberties and preach to the anti-war voters that make up a large percent of their base.

So how does their rhetoric match up to their actions? Time after time the D's are the anti civil liberty war part and the R's act like the party of fiscal insanity. These are just the more general examples of what is common in so many ways. Further, the more 'independent' parts of the government also paint a very unrealistic picture to the average citizen who simply browses their conclusions. The BLS reports on unemployment and tells us what the unemployment rate is nationwide. But it is totally non controversial among those who actually study economics to accept that their statistics grossly under report the 'real' unemployment rate (and by real I mean what logically makes sense to most people). They have so many different criteria that have been developed over the years to make the number look lower and lower.

The same is true with government reported inflation and a whole host of other issues. Projections of costs on various programs like Medicare have been shown to be so far off the reality when looking back at them over the decades that it is a combination of laughable and tragic. I am not interested in a debate over how much these things are distorted and with what level of intention, but no reasonable person can argue that it would not be wise to be highly cautious and skeptical of what a politician or government agency tells the public.

The reality is that in a climate like the American political scene that I have lived through, you should have a much greater level of understanding as to why it can be such a breeding ground for the conspiracy theorists. Of course those who align themselves with a policy stance that is most against the present government and two parties will be those most skeptical of it. Do they go too far quite often with their fears and theories? Sure. Can you understand why they are so damn skeptical? History should give you some tolerance and respect for it.

I might come off as a bit pathetic here but so be it. It is really weak and annoying to watch as so many people blindly assume that because some people in the small government contingency act a bit cultish and espouse some over the top theories that any time anyone questions the government, they must be some nut job. I started a thread about the current role the US plays in Iraq (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41...-iraq-1243511/) and made it very clear that all I was doing was looking for some objective responses and hard facts about the troop withdrawal. I did not hide the fact that I was coming from a place of skepticism when I hear politicians claiming we left Iraq and all I wanted to do was find out to what extent that was really true. Because I am a realist and not an ignorant fool, I don't blindly accept what I hear the blowhards say. I have no dog in the fight other than simply wanting to know the truth and I was looking for credible sources that could give me the facts I was looking for. I was actually hoping the sources would be papers like the NYT because while I may not like the slant of the paper, they are a solid news reporting source.

So the long story short, give it a rest on trying to demean every person that shows some skepticism of the government as some kind of tin foil hat fool. Meanwhile, try looking at the less controversial facts of the last few decades and be a little open minded to the idea that the story the government pitches is not always an accurate portrayal of reality or even rarely is. I know this is a forum, people are here for fun, etc etc, but it is amazing how many frequent posters in here just seem to get off to trolling the beliefs of the people they disagree with. Rather than trying to paint someone you disagree with as a moron, try actually showing some respect and trying to persuade them with your superior logic or knowledge. From when I first started lurking here until now, the discourse has gotten noticeably more immature and lame and has made reading this forum so much less enjoyable (for me) than it used to be.

So that's my plea, and I am sure I will be trolled for it, but c'est la vie.

I predict falcon will make some terrible posts ITT.

I agree with your thesis though. Ignorance demeans ignorance to feel better about their own foolish self.

Really. So you're saying you're some kind of oracle? That you can see the future? I gotta say man, I really don't believe in all that stuff. But if Falcon DOES come in here and post terribly, my mind can be changed.


If you're right, it will be AMAZING.

Fine, but you have the methodology and the other numbers so you can decide for yourself. No conspiracy here.

But allow me to counter: Just because I might make fun of people who believe in chemtrails or 9/11 Truth that doesn't mean I believe everything the government says.

alex jones is a plant by the government whose sole job is to discredit the many TRUE conspiracies that exist by blending them with the ridiculous ones.

or is that a conspiracy theory too?

So much this.

Great op sir.

From what I have seen it seems like most people on here feel like Sisyphus most of the time when it comes to debates so trolling is the only viable option.

Take the gun debate for example. See what I mean? After you are blue in the face the only thing to do is call the other guy an idiot and bail.

Also, the tea party is a joke, those guys are a bunch of tin foil hat crazies.

But then you are missing my point altogether. With regards to the BLS numbers, I am not claiming it is an elaborate conspiracy (and the title of my thread is bad) but just that it gives off a much different picture than the reality to the masses who aren't sitting there looking deeper. When the government says the unemployment rate is 8%, I'd guess the vast majority of people who hear that assume it means 8% of adults are out of work.

As for making fun of those people, just make fun of the specific ideas that come up that you perceive as absurd by challenging their facts. I don't even know what chemtrails are and I have zero interest or belief in all the 9/11 theories. But I have noticed a really disturbing trend. What happened in my Iraq thread was not the first time I felt it. I was very honestly trying to get more information about the reality on the ground in Iraq because I was highly skeptical that politicians saying we pulled out were being totally honest. The second my skepticism was clear, and that I was coming from a place of libertarian ideas, the tinfoil hat/conspiratard comments came out as a way to ignorantly disregard what was a very legitimate and honest attempt to evaluate the facts on Iraq relative to the speeches politicans are giving. It's not that my feelings get hurt but instead that I just find it really frustrating because when such lame and hollow attacks are levied, it totally diminishes the quality of the discussion and any positive information that can result from it. I have made plenty of posts in the politics forum. Plenty of them were off the cuff and often rashly made (and dumb) and yet I would be shocked if you can ever find a post I made that was anywhere near a conspiracy theory type post.

I am skeptical of the government more for the reality of what has occurred in my lifetime than anything else. I do strongly believe the central government in the US is a total disaster and that a much more limited approach is better. Honest people can disagree, but I really find it hard to believe that anyone who truly understands my opinions can not have a genuine respect for it, even if they disagree. So many posters here just get off to trivializing people and then trolling them as a way to disregard very real and credible arguments. I mean my god. I really like Ron Paul for the message he delivered these last two elections and the vast majority of his voting record. But when I say I like him I get newsletter and confederacy comments that assume I must be a racist. It's totally absurd and a pathetic way to avoid having to open your mind to very solid ideas on the proper role of government that I enjoy discussing. There is a reason so many people here need to post that every time any libertarian discussion pops up. It's the only way they can feel like they 'win' against someone whose ideas are more strongly based on logic when they lack a good understanding of the issue. I talk about the war on drugs or the US presence in the middle east or regulations and a moron throws a confederate flag up as a retort. I'll live but it just sucks because if people could act with more honesty and civility here, this forum could be a lot more enjoyable for me and could help me learn more, which is the reason I am here.

I agree on both points.

When referencing the BLS numbers I prefer the term "propaganda."

It's not some star-chamber conspiracy, it's just guberment doing what it does best; looking out for itself by keeping sheeple ignorant of what is really going on.

Anyone with any intelligence can look into the numbers and see them for what they are.

Your last sentence seems to refute your first opening paragraphs. These numbers are analyzed and understood by market participants. I have never heard people think they are cooked in any way. Politicians certainly put spin on them and more money cold be spent to get better initial estimates so the revisions are not so dramatic but US government economic stats are fair. This isn't China.

I'm sure the vast majority of this forum agrees with Dr. Paul about Iraq and the War on Drugs. It wouldn't be much of a debate if we just chatted about how great that is.

Naturally people are going to discuss points of disagreement. With Dr. Paul these include fringe economics, dismantling the social safety net, the 'We The People Act', advocating the repeal of the CRA, and yes, pandering to racists. These are all legitimate topics.

You don't get to restrict discussion to the issues you want to talk about. If you don't like the low blows, don't respond.

Wow. Not sure what to say. There are many finance/econ sites that discuss the numbers and how wonked they are. Just go back and look at how the revisions work each week on the initial claims numbers.

It's funny how we can recognize propaganda in other countries but not in our own.

Throw a brother a link, but I will be highly skeptical. Economic numbers move markets and if they were not recognized as reliable they would not.

What the heck kind of statement is this? If I am trying to have a discussion about regulations, I don't 'get' to restrict it to the topic of regulations? Obviously I don't own others and they can say whatever they want, I am simply pointing out how shallow and pathetic it is to respond to my post that is a discussion of regulations with a totally off topic attack meant to undermine all arguments from someone who comes from that persuasion. It is the epitome of ignorance and makes it a lot less enjoyable and informative to use this forum.

Iyonimo.

I am going to watch Mr. Magoo and go to sleep so you can get jiggy with it in hurr unmolested if you like.

+1

"The best way to control the opposition is to lead it yourself"
- Lenin

I agree with a lot of stuff op said, and I also agree with the hundreds of thousands of scholars, architects and engineers who think 911 was an inside job

If someone can prove how building 7 fell in the path of greater resistence at the speed of gravity, then I will take a video of me pouring piss on my head

What kind of piss?

before you do the piss stunt, you, as the owner of your head, must give the official order to "pull it".

rofls have ridges.

You were half right. Unfortunately, falcon is not capable of making -terrible- posts, so I was freerolling.

Mr. Magoo sucked yesterday so he might have you there.