Capitalism: It Just Works - Page 6 - Politics and Economics

Does the use of fossil fuels completly destroy the possibility of having clean water and air? no it does not.

So your example is a good example of why some property rights, sometimes, "for better reasons", can be curbed.

It's not at all a good example of why communist conversation can take place though, given that the core belief of communism is TOTAL AND PERMANENT eradication of private property. Total. Permanent. Not some limitation in some cases as justified by this or that greater purpose. Total. Forever.

So you have either to admit that the communist belief system is infringing on a basic right, or admit that you don't consider that having at least SOME property rights is a basic human right. You decide

communists will point to the difference between "personal property" and "private property"

I think it's a ridiculous distinction, but I don't hear anyone advocating for total public ownership of all material

08-24-2018 , 12:30 PM

#127

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Oh among the rights that communism infringes, there is inheritance.

Of course you could just handwave that away as an irrelevant part of life, but for many people with children their life as far less meaning if they know they can't leave any property to their children.

But who cares what is really important for other people right?

I have a child, and I plan on having more. I am not concerned with material inheritance.

If your life's meaning is determined by the amount of material wealth you can leave behind... I guess I really don't know what to say to you.

08-24-2018 , 12:31 PM

#128

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Well it does in italy, as fascism passed the "racial laws" which banned jews from public work and so on. Yes you have the fascio littorio also on abrahma lincoln statue.

so you're suggesting that, along with the hammer-and-sickle, the seal of the US senate and the abrahma lincoln statue should not be permissible avatars?

or that a swastika should be a permissible avatar?

08-24-2018 , 12:32 PM

#129

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

is the confederate battle flag a bannable avatar?

regardless, that symbol uniquely represents a culture grounded in exclusively racial slavery

the hammer-and-sickle does not represent the USSR and was not unique to the USSR

Hammer and sickle was INVENTED as a symbol during the russian revolution. It's worse than the svastika and the fascio littorio. It was literally invented by the soviets. So it symbolizes that before anything else. The soviet way of life, the soviet way of political philosophy.

Yes, after URSS creation many other communist parties around the world took up the same symbol. This btw confirms the shared ideology and shared guilt for the crime of the soviet union, as they didn't drop the symbol the day "the gulag archipelago" got public in the west.

08-24-2018 , 12:33 PM

#130

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

I say that the particular from the statue of abraham lincoln with the fascio littorio should not be permissibile as avatar if blatantly used by a rightwing account yes.

I would strongly advise against letting people use the swastika as an avatar

08-24-2018 , 12:34 PM

#131

corpus vile

temp-banned

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,290

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

That's just it, no one is glorifying the USSR.

Except the OP in another thread who just plain lied his ass off when responding to a point regarding millions murdered under Communist Russia by claiming that the USSR "killed Nazis and ended WWII" with the heavy implication that the USSR killed nazis only which is right up there with "Read my Lips: No new taxes" or "Ah did not have sex-shull relayshuns with that woman!" or "There's WMD's in Eye-raq".

If that isn't glorifying the USSR then I for one dunno what is.

08-24-2018 , 12:34 PM

#132

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

That's definitely not what marx said. You are talking about social anarchism.

Wrong.

Marx predicted the end of the State.

08-24-2018 , 12:37 PM

#133

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

Yes you are not concerned with securing your children prosperity in the future. That's your call and you have all the rights in the world to view life as you do (at least in my political philosophy).

What is unclear to me is why you think that imposing, violently, your view of the world unto every other single human being you happen to share your country of residence with, is something that you can say is "tolerable".

08-24-2018 , 12:39 PM

#134

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

Wrong.

Marx predicted the end of the State.

Wrong, that's what Engels says marx said.

08-24-2018 , 12:39 PM

#135

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

per wiki, you are incorrect.

it was used on the Chilean peso as early as 1895!

08-24-2018 , 12:41 PM

#136

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Wrong, that's what Engels says marx said.

the "true communist", amirite?

08-24-2018 , 12:43 PM

#137

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

per wiki, you are incorrect.

it was used on the Chilean peso as early as 1895!

I stand corrected, you found one single use of the symbol before the URSS, covered by leafs.

From now on i will recognize people who proudly display the hammer and sickle as modern chile historian geeks which of course they are.

08-24-2018 , 12:44 PM

#138

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

the "true communist", amirite?

I wrote "that's not what marx said", if you want to go into the leftwing diatribe about which version of hell is more communist i am not the right person to help you.

08-24-2018 , 12:45 PM

#139

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Look at private property - status quo. If I walk in to your house and watch your TV (while you aren't using it), and you grab me by the arm and drag me out - you are imposing your view of the world violently upon me.

But I'm not here talking about any violent imposition. All I'm doing is suggesting (1) that the hammer-and-sickle is not necessarily representative of a violent philosophy, whereas (2) that the swastika is.

I am starting to come around to the threat of violence inherent in the H&S itself, but in the context of centuries of brutal repression, I think it is justifiably construably defensive violence.

08-24-2018 , 12:46 PM

#140

dinopoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,437

If the stores are out of bottled water why don't the people just get some empty containers and fill them from, you know, the water that comes out of their taps?

08-24-2018 , 12:47 PM

#141

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

your point was that the symbol was invented in USSR and therefor that it must reference USSR

I pointed out that it was not invented in USSR and that it's meaning, generally representing workers, predates the USSR

when the nazi's stole the swastika, they changed its meaning

not so with the soviets

08-24-2018 , 12:49 PM

#142

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

I wrote "that's not what marx said", if you want to go into the leftwing diatribe about which version of hell is more communist i am not the right person to help you.

it's just slightly aggravating that you use the "true communist" argument when I suggest not all communists are leninists, but you have no problem pointing to Marx vs Engels to determine whether the state has any role in communism

08-24-2018 , 12:50 PM

#143

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

Wrong, that's what Engels says marx said.

No, Marx said it, its basic Marx.

The state has to dissolve, its only role is to preserve private property, with no private property there is no need for a state.

08-24-2018 , 12:53 PM

#144

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

per your previous link it was used only once before.
Then it became fully associated with ussr and comunist parties (which i repeat shared the same ideology including the acceptance of violent revolution)

08-24-2018 , 12:54 PM

#145

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

No, Marx said it, its basic Marx.

The state has to dissolve, its only role is to preserve private property, with no private property there is no need for a state.

care to point which chapter, which book? Always happy to learn, I genuinely remember differently

08-24-2018 , 12:55 PM

#146

Trolly McTrollson

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 36,753

Naziism linked in a fundamental way with hateful, violent racism, anti-Semitism and bigotry that society has decided is offensive and unacceptable. Same deal with the Stars and Bars in most of America. It hits a raw nerve in a way the hammer and sickle doesn’t. I can see maybe in places like the former iron curtain there might be people who find it legitimately offensive and taboo in the same way that the USA finds swastikas offensive.

08-24-2018 , 12:59 PM

#147

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

engels says it "withers away". He is making a prediction (which has been blatantly countered by reality) that when all property is public the state dies of uselessness.

So "no state" is not a tenet of communism, even under engels. It's a wrong prediction made by many communist ideologues.

Not all communist are leninists. But they are all responsible morally for Lenin crimes unless they identify him as a criminal and as an example of everything that can be wrong with a demagogue. I mean everybody who is not allin against Lenin is a very bad human being. Even if they don't agree fully with every idea or action by Lenin

08-24-2018 , 01:04 PM

#148

Luciom

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

I.understand your explanation logically. I am still puzzled that that's the case though. Given you fought 4-5 years of war vs Nazis, 40-45 vs.communists

But yes 420k dead vs nazis and something around only 100k vs communist could explain the difference. Although the 420k include the asian theater

08-24-2018 , 01:26 PM

#149

IEnjoyChicken

newbie

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 26

In which einbert DESTROYS the strawman of completely unregulated capitalism (which tbh is still prob > communism)

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/ne...0828-0025.html

Yeah good point Cuba is a paradise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by einbert

No you let people access the wealth that THEY built in the first place directly. Essentials should not be something one has to afford or pay for, they should be available to all. And YES that includes noncitizens.

These are the questions we will be asking with the impending crises of climate change. These are the answers we will be missing under the current model. They aren't even possibilities to imagine under capitalism.

We solve supply shortages by... not having shortages. Genius!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luciom

There is something i don't understand with the moderation in this forum. Of course it's your forum so i am not going to say how you "should" do things, i am only inquiring to understand what's the site philosophy behind moderation choices.

How comes that using a nazi symbol as avatar is forbidden, and opening pro-nazi threads is forbidden, while using a communist symbol is allowed, and opening pro-communism threads is allowed?

Do you moderators of this forum disagree with the notion that communism killed more people than nazism? i thought that was a undisputable fact well supported by evidence.

Do you moderators think that the thresold to ban political ideas is not how many people got killed by their implementation but something else? what exactly?

It's not unclear to me why banning pro nazi symbols, and speech in general, helps keeping a decent level of conversation. It's really unclear to me however how that doesn't apply to communism too.

So given that this is a place full of smart people i am surely missing something obvious that justifies censorship towards pro-nazi, but not censorship towards pro communism.

Please enlight me

In Nazism, the genocide is a definite pillar of the philosophy. Communism is horrible in practice but it isn't an evil idea.