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Old 03-18-2019, 06:00 PM   #15351
LostOstrich
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Re: Brexit Referendum

just lol at all the brexiteers complaining that they're not allowed to lose a vote and keep bringing it back for another vote until they get the desired result. IRONY IS DEAD
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:19 PM   #15352
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Re: Brexit Referendum

They were also ha-ha-ing at the thought that the Speaker has snookered himself and amendments can't be put either. But he suggests that Standing Order 24 would allow neutral but amendable motions to do whatever the House wants. They appear to have stopped ha-ha-ing as this sinks in.

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Old 03-18-2019, 06:19 PM   #15353
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Re: Brexit Referendum

ORDAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:40 PM   #15354
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Re: Brexit Referendum

So May brings a bill (maybe a neutral one) and someone brings a withdrawal bill amendment. Then Bercow has to refuse that amendment? What if a majority have signed it?

Bizarre stuff. I still have no idea at all whether Bercow decisions is better for remainers or leavers.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:43 PM   #15355
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Yeah, does this mean cos there's already been a amendment about a second referendum that got slapped down, there can't be another amendment about a second referendum?

That would seem correct, if this is about following protocol rather than being a remainer subverting things to try and achieve a result he wants?
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:44 PM   #15356
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Re: Brexit Referendum

The paranoia is strong in this one
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:50 PM   #15357
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Lol to anyone suggesting his stance is neutral.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:00 PM   #15358
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Re: Brexit Referendum

This block seems to help hard core brexitards as it makes no deal more possible.

There is still the fundamental tension of

May: Can we have an extension please.
EU: Why?
May: To renegotiate the deal.
EU: LOOOOOL.
May: Ok, so I can pass the deal
EU: LOOOOOOOOOOOL,
May: Um, so I can have GE and have a Parliament that will pass the deal.
EU: hmmm interested,

GE dominated by Brexit returns a Parliament even more fragmented and divided.
EU: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL BYE.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:02 PM   #15359
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
Yeah, does this mean cos there's already been a amendment about a second referendum that got slapped down, there can't be another amendment about a second referendum?

That would seem correct, if this is about following protocol rather than being a remainer subverting things to try and achieve a result he wants?
I don't think that's obviously correct (although this is all very arcane and who the **** knows) Bringing the withdrawal bill as an amendment to a neutral bill would be an amendment identical to a bill.

That's not the same as amendments to different bills which appear to be the same. Then it would be bizarre to rule them out as genuine amendment are considered in the house in the light of the bill being amended and hence if the bill is different than the amendment is different. Unless perhaps it's amendments to a neutral bill.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:13 PM   #15360
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
This block seems to help hard core brexitards as it makes no deal more possible.

There is still the fundamental tension of

May: Can we have an extension please.
EU: Why?
May: To renegotiate the deal.
EU: LOOOOOL.
May: Ok, so I can pass the deal
EU: LOOOOOOOOOOOL,
May: Um, so I can have GE and have a Parliament that will pass the deal.
EU: hmmm interested,

GE dominated by Brexit returns a Parliament even more fragmented and divided.
EU: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL BYE.
Yes that's sorta possible but it plays out several other ways.

The EU desperately doesn't want to say 'looool goodbye'. So the long extension (and ultimately remain perhaps) becomes a lot more likely if May's bill is frustrated.

The chances of a GE have probably gone up but there's no guarantee at all that the house will be so divided.

Really tough to say but I think the Kyle amendment is harder as it required May to get close enough without Labour's support to become a credible referendum option.

That's even ignoring that it's still quite likely Mays deal comes back in some form and who knows what Bercow's ruling has doen to teh chances of it getting through if it does come back.

Pus all the other possibilities including wtf? Maybe even revoke will start to gain ground.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:44 PM   #15361
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Brexiters have successfully played this out to guarantee a second referendum and a subsequent remain outcome. Hilarious.

Six months from now there will be dozens of articles about how they wish they had accepted Mays deal and that if it had the original EU backstop (Irish Sea regulatory border) it was the exact brexit they wanted all along.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:47 PM   #15362
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Re: Brexit Referendum

I saw the idea that Bercow may block continual "meaningful" votes on the same thing posted in the brexit thread on another forum I read a few days ago, didn't think it'd actually happen. Amazing!
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:33 AM   #15363
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Re: Brexit Referendum

If this were a TV drama and we'd been watching the shenanigans each week, the speaker pulling this one would be at the end of the penultimate episode and cut to both the main arch-remainer and arch-hard brexiter characters suddenly getting a wry smile, all the moderates look mortified, and the show either goes to awesome, or jumps the shark. I'm not sure which.

Last edited by diebitter; 03-19-2019 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:51 AM   #15364
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Re: Brexit Referendum

May has a clear path to get her deal through now tho. Run down the clock behind the excuse Bercow wants the impossible, MPs start bricking it about a no deal, do an amendment to ignore Bercow (or does he get a veto on such things?), then get to vote on her deal again as is. If it doesn't pass again, then no deal it is.

Labour will have to make up the numbers, else they'll be tarred with the blame by the press if no deal happens.


One thing that is clear is that this whole 'speaker' thing puts way too much power into one person's hands. That should change (but it almost certainly wont)


The next 10 days are going to be mental.

Last edited by diebitter; 03-19-2019 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:24 AM   #15365
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Hold on, I'm detecting a deeper conspiracy here... is this Erskine May a relative of Theresa May?!!!!?!!
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:45 AM   #15366
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Brexitards for the last 2.5 years: You lost, get over it

Brexitards for the last 12 hours: We demand a third meaningful vote
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:48 AM   #15367
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Even more galling about Brexitards hypocrisy is that the referendum was advisory not legally binding, unlike HoC votes (subject to HoL).

Shows how much respect for democracy and rule of law these turds really have.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:29 AM   #15368
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
May has a clear path to get her deal through now tho. Run down the clock behind the excuse Bercow wants the impossible, MPs start bricking it about a no deal, do an amendment to ignore Bercow (or does he get a veto on such things?), then get to vote on her deal again as is. If it doesn't pass again, then no deal it is.

Labour will have to make up the numbers, else they'll be tarred with the blame by the press if no deal happens.


One thing that is clear is that this whole 'speaker' thing puts way too much power into one person's hands. That should change (but it almost certainly wont)


The next 10 days are going to be mental.
Listening to Dominic Grieve on newsnight last night it was clear that the house could vote to suspend the rule that Bercow is using. Providing they can win the vote of course.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:47 AM   #15369
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
Brexiters have successfully played this out to guarantee a second referendum and a subsequent remain outcome. Hilarious.

Six months from now there will be dozens of articles about how they wish they had accepted Mays deal and that if it had the original EU backstop (Irish Sea regulatory border) it was the exact brexit they wanted all along.
If we could have no deal vs no brexit on the ballot, i'd take a 2nd ref right now.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:00 AM   #15370
[Phill]
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
May has a clear path to get her deal through now tho. Run down the clock behind the excuse Bercow wants the impossible, MPs start bricking it about a no deal, do an amendment to ignore Bercow (or does he get a veto on such things?), then get to vote on her deal again as is. If it doesn't pass again, then no deal it is.

Labour will have to make up the numbers, else they'll be tarred with the blame by the press if no deal happens.


One thing that is clear is that this whole 'speaker' thing puts way too much power into one person's hands. That should change (but it almost certainly wont)


The next 10 days are going to be mental.
Lmao you don't want checks and balances against the power of number 10? So parliament can just be gridlocked forever with the same failed bill being brought out for a vote until they eventually agree. This is the democracy you want?

Labour and remain already won. Its over. Parliament had made clear they won't accept no deal.

Leavers only out was the May deal. They overplayed their position for marginal gains around the edges and have now lost everything.

Either we get a renegotiated super soft deal (Norway with extra steps) under a remainer Labour PM (Corbyn is close to falling on his sword anyway) which the people get to vote on at the end, or, we get a new referendum now which remain wins.

There is no outcome now without a second referendum. It is just timing now.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:03 AM   #15371
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
Even more galling about Brexitards hypocrisy is that the referendum was advisory not legally binding, unlike HoC votes (subject to HoL).

Shows how much respect for democracy and rule of law these turds really have.
The only problem with this is that it wasn't made clear before the referendum that it was only advisory. Cameron said the result would be honoured.

I voted Remain and want a 2nd referendum with the option to remain and see this was the only way we can now stay in the EU.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:27 AM   #15372
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsUrine View Post
The only problem with this is that it wasn't made clear before the referendum that it was only advisory. Cameron said the result would be honoured.

I voted Remain and want a 2nd referendum with the option to remain and see this was the only way we can now stay in the EU.
It is almost inconceivable we can remain without a 2nd referendum. A very clear GE mandate could do it as well but that seems unlikely.

Why Phill is certain it's a done deal is beyond me. We have a long way to go yet. Not least in that we have to get that referendum and then we have to win it. And May isn't dead yet.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:32 AM   #15373
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
Brexiters have successfully played this out to guarantee a second referendum and a subsequent remain outcome. Hilarious.

.
There is no such guarantee.

If EU does not grant an extension, and there are no further votes in Parliament we leave on March 29th with no deal.

No deal on 29th is currently the trajectory.

The no deal vote in parliament did nothing to change that, all it did was stop no deal from becoming the fixed position.

Yes this is very highly likely to change, but given how much dynamic and fluid the situation has been, where we end up is far from guaranteed.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:02 AM   #15374
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Pffft pipe dreams we will remain
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:13 AM   #15375
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Yeah I really don't see remain happening. The British aristocracy still have the charge of the light brigade ethos we'll do this damn foolish thing by jove even though its a stupid and pointless death. Plus there are too many powerful people (Mr Banks et al) who are getting rich off the collapse of Britain and will get richer off the rebuild. Especially if they get their way in regards to a low regulation low tax no welfare state no nhs ecomony.
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