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Old 03-17-2019, 10:03 PM   #15326
[Phill]
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
if the second referendum isn't clarification of how to pursue the result of the first ref (ie which way shall we leave), then it shouldn't be held until the first referendum is delivered. That seems fair.
FWIW I think it would be wonderful for Britain if we did brexit on your **** up of a plan, then we rejoin Europe in a couple years after passing all the necessary requirements.

I think the optimal direction of the country is to fundamentally agree your generation destroyed the country, finish letting you **** it all the way up, and let my generation fix it from the ground up.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:07 AM   #15327
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Re: Brexit Referendum

pfft EU will disintegrate or federalise anyway, either way we're better out.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:51 AM   #15328
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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LOL so kicking the can down the road and deliberate blocking of progress should be rewarded?

Are you in a job that's paid by the hour or something?
It's been a terrible waste of everyone's time with consequences for business and the economy, but it sounds like you're afraid of asking the people specifically what they want now.

Who'd have guessed the Mr Democracy is such a hypocrite?

Last edited by jalfrezi; 03-18-2019 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:26 AM   #15329
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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LOL so kicking the can down the road and deliberate blocking of progress should be rewarded?
There's no 'should' about it but it's simply a fact that time diminishes and the longer we can remain in the EU after the 1st referendum, the easier it gets to make the case for 'asking again' and forget about any commitments to honour the first result.

It's part of the reason why leavers are so scared of a long extension and why remainers quite like the idea. Plus the demographic changes favours remainers.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:28 AM   #15330
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by [Phill] View Post
FWIW I think it would be wonderful for Britain if we did brexit on your **** up of a plan, then we rejoin Europe in a couple years after passing all the necessary requirements.

I think the optimal direction of the country is to fundamentally agree your generation destroyed the country, finish letting you **** it all the way up, and let my generation fix it from the ground up.
So you think the economic/political consequences of leaving are positive?

So presumably you voted leave?

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Old 03-18-2019, 07:30 AM   #15331
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Re: Brexit Referendum

There are fundamental reasons to oppose a second referendum but also many reasons in favour of a second referendum. I have no issue with someone who thinks one set of reasons are stronger than the other but it's obtuse to deny there really are "both sides".

BTW, it seems most Leavers think no deal is preferable, by a large amount, to May's deal (which they think is a turkey). Wouldn't it make sense to roll the dice on a referendum where they'd have a shot at Real Brexit? If Britain doesn't crash out in eleven days I think it's unlikely parliament will ever allow Real Brexit w/o a(nother) referendum. So why not a referendum with Remain and Real Brexit (and maybe May's deal too) on the ballot? Think about this: May's deal will only get voted by Leave MPs. The argument "Brexit got betrayed" would come from the same people who voted against (a) Brexit!! IMO it's "fair" to tell them: look, *either* you accept May's compromise Brexit *or* we'll give you a chance at Real Brexit but then Remainers get a(nother) chance at Remain. Let them make their choice.

(alternatively parliament could pass Norway+/BINO: but wouldn't this be seen as a betrayal - an overwhelmingly Remain parliament voting to (de facto) remain against the people's will - by the vast majority of Leavers? Again, wouldn't they prefer a chance at Real Brexit?)

Last edited by PartyGirlUK; 03-18-2019 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:39 AM   #15332
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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There are fundamental reasons to oppose a second referendum but also many reasons in favour of a second referendum. I have no issue with someone who thinks one set of reasons are stronger than the other but it's obtuse to deny there really are "both sides".

BTW, it seems most Leavers think no deal is preferable, by a large amount, to May's deal (which they think is a turkey). Wouldn't it make sense to roll the dice on a referendum where they'd have a shot at Real Brexit? If Britain doesn't crash out in eleven days I think it's unlikely parliament will ever allow Real Brexit w/o a(nother) referendum. So why not a referendum with Remain and Real Brexit (and maybe May's deal too) on the ballot? Think about this: May's deal will only get voted by Leave MPs. The argument "Brexit got betrayed" would come from the same people who voted against (a) Brexit!! IMO it's "fair" to tell them: look, *either* you accept May's compromise Brexit *or* we'll give you a chance at Real Brexit but then Remainers get a(nother) chance at Remain. Let them make their choice.
Seems OK at first glance but if the second choice has any weight, May's option will be everyone's second choice, so will win. If second choice has no real weight, then the two Leave options will be split and remain will slip in, even if less than 50%, and will rightly be seen as a dirty trick
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:42 AM   #15333
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Don't understand your post.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:08 AM   #15334
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Re: Brexit Referendum

3 way options usually have a first and second choice, with the second choice having less weighting than the first choice
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:20 AM   #15335
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK View Post
There are fundamental reasons to oppose a second referendum but also many reasons in favour of a second referendum. I have no issue with someone who thinks one set of reasons are stronger than the other but it's obtuse to deny there really are "both sides".

BTW, it seems most Leavers think no deal is preferable, by a large amount, to May's deal (which they think is a turkey). Wouldn't it make sense to roll the dice on a referendum where they'd have a shot at Real Brexit? If Britain doesn't crash out in eleven days I think it's unlikely parliament will ever allow Real Brexit w/o a(nother) referendum. So why not a referendum with Remain and Real Brexit (and maybe May's deal too) on the ballot? Think about this: May's deal will only get voted by Leave MPs. The argument "Brexit got betrayed" would come from the same people who voted against (a) Brexit!! IMO it's "fair" to tell them: look, *either* you accept May's compromise Brexit *or* we'll give you a chance at Real Brexit but then Remainers get a(nother) chance at Remain. Let them make their choice.

(alternatively parliament could pass Norway+/BINO: but wouldn't this be seen as a betrayal - an overwhelmingly Remain parliament voting to (de facto) remain against the people's will - by the vast majority of Leavers? Again, wouldn't they prefer a chance at Real Brexit?)
Norway-plus or whatever they call it would not be in any way a betrayal. It fully meets the question put to the people:

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
Norway is not a member of the European Union.

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
pfft EU will disintegrate or federalise anyway, either way we're better out.
Lol you lot have been saying it is going to disintegrate happen for decades. You far right neo nazis and neo nazi supporters are actually trying to make it happen. It still wont happen.

It may federalise, depending on your definition. Britain would be better off being leading from within a federal EU than outside of it, but we all know this is objectively true.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:28 AM   #15336
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
3 way options usually have a first and second choice, with the second choice having less weighting than the first choice
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:41 AM   #15337
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Old 03-18-2019, 12:22 PM   #15338
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Bercow sez there can't be MV3

Brexit: John Bercow rules out third meaningful vote on same deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-on-same-deal
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:53 PM   #15339
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Wow. I thought for sure that the ERG would cave and we'd get may's deal the third time around (maybe the 4th). Now who the hell knows.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:55 PM   #15340
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Re: Brexit Referendum

We live in extraordinary times. A battle between the government and the speaker could be epic.

Imagine May turns the dup and most of the brexiters and looks like she may well have the numbers. The clock is ticking and the speaker wont let them vote.

There's not enough popcorn

And Bercow better watch his back
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:17 PM   #15341
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Looks like it's being forced to be no deal or no brexit to me.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:19 PM   #15342
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
Wow. I thought for sure that the ERG would cave and we'd get may's deal the third time around (maybe the 4th). Now who the hell knows.
Me too
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:23 PM   #15343
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Don't write off a meaningful Vote 3 too easily.

Big gap between Bercow's ruligng today and that.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:23 PM   #15344
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Re: Brexit Referendum

From the BBC

Mr Bercow made his ruling in response to what he said were concerns from MPs across Parliament that the government intended to "bring the same deal back to the House ad infinitum"

That's a profoundly stupid way to put it, given it is a time frame of 11 days


Can they just end a 'session' and start a new one maybe?
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:26 PM   #15345
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
From the BBC

Mr Bercow made his ruling in response to what he said were concerns from MPs across Parliament that the government intended to "bring the same deal back to the House ad infinitum"

That's a profoundly stupid way to put it, given it is a time frame of 11 days


Can they just end a 'session' and start a new one maybe?
Possibly. https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/...s/prorogation/

There's also the possibility of parliament changing the rules under which bercow made his ruling

Or the simplest solution which is to change the motion sufficiently.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:53 PM   #15346
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Re: Brexit Referendum

From Times New Roman to Comic Sans?
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:02 PM   #15347
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Old 03-18-2019, 02:44 PM   #15348
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Possibly. https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/...s/prorogation/

There's also the possibility of parliament changing the rules under which bercow made his ruling
The government would have to introduce a business motion accordingly and gain a majority on it. I don't think I (or the government) would bet on that.

Quote:
Or the simplest solution which is to change the motion sufficiently.
The Speaker has allowed the suggestion that, if the Withdrawal Agreement were made subject to a referendum, that would be a sufficient difference. And it's believed that the EU would allow an extension for that, though the requirement for unanimity among the 27 is fairly intimidating.

But May's bludgeoning tactic is unconstitutional. It's not, as the BBC are claiming, some obscure 17th-century statute, it's Erskine May, p.397. You can't keep re-presenting something the House has already voted on. Recall if you will that the first defeat for the Withdrawal Agreement was the largest in Parliamentary history. The Speaker has been generous in allowing the Prime Minister to have two goes, because of a supposed EU squiggle on the backstop the second time. But more than two goes would be taking the constitutional piss. (This is why you shouldn't hold unconstitutional referendums and pretend we're a direct democracy like Switzerland -- and practically nowhere else -- when in fact we're the original and genuine representative democracy.)

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...c-brexitinterv

Quote:
There is a section on page 397 of the parliamentary rule book Erskine May which states that "a motion or an amendment which is the same, in substance, as a question which has been decided during a session may not be brought forward again during that same session".
And there really is not the time to prorogue and recall Parliament with a fresh State Opening and a fresh Queen's Speech (which would have to pass by a majority in the House) to establish a fresh Parliamentary session before Friday week, so you can forget that.

Last edited by 57 On Red; 03-18-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:22 PM   #15349
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Hard to argue with this:

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Old 03-18-2019, 04:53 PM   #15350
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Is it likely that May asked/hoped/urged Bercow to rule out MV3 vote because she knows it will fail? I find it a bit suspicious that 1) Leaks there will be no deal with the DUP, 2) 23 ERGs publish a declaration they will never vote for her deal, 3) Bercow rules out MV3, all happened in the span of like 1 hour. It seems like May is trying to save some face.
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