Here's some of the issues I have. And yes, one of them is open borders for all no matter how useless they might be, so duckspeaking remainers among you, please get your poo ready to fling:

- control being ever more ceded to a legislation process less democratically connected to its citizenry than nation-state level parliaments with no two-way mechanism to return powers (subsidiarity is basically ignored - interesting how the EU bleat on about its principles but happily ignores those that interfere with it growing its power base....)
- no effective counter to the expanding remit of the EU: Every power ceded to the EU seems gated so there is no reasonable mechanism to return powers because 'EU treaty sez no'
- Ever increasing loss of veto power as veto gets surrendered to majority decision, diminishing leverage of individual states. Why shouldn't individual states retain leverage?
- No gating mechanism for citizens between countries based on skills or even a requirement to be reasonably self-supporting (recent ECJ rulings stated to try and relocate rough sleepers back to their country of origin was 'unlawful'...)
- EU ideology seems to be its own unstoppable juggernaut, and if any country tries to wrestle with it, the response is '4 freedoms! Derp!') - for example. approach to making citizenry equal by merely opening up borders is ridiculous imo: EU should be about investing hard in countries with weaker GDP's to bring them up to par with stronger countries
- requirements to cede certain national resources, such as fishing areas, to central pool, with no clear rationale why this must be so other than that just part of the bill for being a member.

I wasn't addressing your specific post, but the wider discussion.

To address this post, I agree. A very, very unfortunate aspect of Brexit was to empower racists.

Racism should not be tolerated, and where it exists it should be countered in a strong a way as possible - but accusations of racism where it doesn't exist is a demonising and dehumanising act, and any people doing it are not helping anyone, and are just setting themselves into the same mind set of 'them vs us' that belong to the assorted bigots they profess to fight against.


The difference is 'if you're not my friend, you're my enemy' vs 'if you're not my friend...where can we find common ground, find mutual benefit and consensus...and maybe even become friends?'

(Not saying you can ever find common ground with a racist - I'm specifically not saying that - I'm saying you label everyone who disagrees with you a racist, you're doing a lot of people a wrong, and cutting off any sort of dialogue)

This is fine until the last part where you build a straw man. No one in this thread has labelled people racists because they happen to disagree with them, except where the bone of contention is over race obviously.

Are you kidding me?


There are tons of posts and responses that are basically
- I want to leave the EU
- That's cos you're racist! (or often, 'You racist!')

You're asserting that no single poster in this thread has done that, right?

Ok, Jalfrezi, I know someone who wants to leave the EU.

Can you tell me, is that person a racist?

If they want to leave the EU because they don't like immigration, in the real world yes that becomes an issue of race I'm afraid.

So let's put the qualifier to one side... without any further information about why they want to leave the EU, do you think that person is a racist?

Lol bitter

It's clearly impossible to say, but I'd estimate the probability is at least 80% using the normal, colloquial definition of racism that includes not only apparent ethnicity but nationality and (though hardly relevant here) Islamophobia too.

Most people cited immigration as one of the reasons they voted to leave, and any sentient person knows there's also a shy Tpry effect in those stats too where people will happily cite other reasons such as (here we go again) "sovereignty", but when pressed reveal they have no idea what it is but they're damned sure they don't want isn't in the same Parliament as those bloody awful French and Germans.

We can drop the sillyness if you like. I see the way you (and others even more) throw your toys out of the pram at run of the mill posters and wonder if you lot have met any real racists. I give you (at least) credit thet you have so lets not be aresholes about it.

In my first sentence I was referring to how we went directly from discussing healing divisions with the 52% to 'wot if it's (nearly) all just about racism'.

It's you hearing the wrong things - possibly from being here too long. There was another example on Newsnight last night. Someone working in the NHS voted leave because 'lots more money for the NHS', she doesn't believe that anymore but is worried about immigration because it's 'swamping the NHS with too much demand'. Call her stupid, racist whatever and you're missing that she is screaming at you that she's working in an NHS that can't cope. Ignore the rest ffs, its the NHS! and it's our failure.

One of the reasons we need the hate speech laws. But the supressed/enbolded description is dubious, racism isn't purely some fixed internal state. Sure some supress but also some become more/less racist depedning on the situation. Long ago I wrote that the housing ***up in England would case racism - and it has. The cause can be addressed and the racist behavior caused by it will ease.

Being anti-racism is a very good thing. Your propogating a stupid of a lie that I dont recognise racism as a problem and seek to address it. It's just a lie so let's move on.

Maybe even get back to the real subject of how we heal the rfit with the 52% if we do manage to stop brexit.

Ok. I want immigration available to all world citizens to come the UK, but based on merit only in all cases where someone isn't a British citizen (1 exception: anyone fighting for Brit armed forces for some minimum time - say 3 years - auto gets Brit Cit). Merit criteria decided by independent authority strongly sensitive to business needs and predicted shortages.

Am I a racist because of this view?

Keep your stinking immigrants! Invest hard in countries of those stinking immigrants so I don't have to share a bus with them!

Who does this **** think he's kidding?

^
Jafrezi, when you said no one in this thread etc etc....

I want world immigration - just another right wing talking point because it suits their agenda now. Reality is they're terrified of black/brown/not white people.

Ask one of the ****s to live beside some Indian's or Pakistanis and it'll be a different story.

I dgaf what jalfrezi said.

You're still a racist ****wit in here talking bollocks.

You have an issue with the EU approach to making citizens equal (I'll be honest and tell you I'm struggling to even know wtf this means as we're already ****ing equals). More ****ing racism/xenophobia/bigotry whatever to **** you want to call it. Def isn't 'I'm not a racist' chat.

****ing ballbag.

Martymc1: Person X voted leave. With no other information, do you think Person X a racist?

It's because I went to school with and worked with real racists - are people who referred to black people as "Sooties" racist enough for you, or do you give them a free pass? How about people who say they don't like black people? - and others in their group whose racism was more codified ("Brixton, ah yes that used to be a nice area, before ...." - implicitly racist or not chez? - that I recognise the tell tale signs of someone trying to be careful about expressing their racism, and have seen where it leads if not challenged and, yes, ridiculed.

So you can **** off with your giving me the benefit of the doubt about whether I've ever "met any real racists".

JFC. It's astonishing that you seem to be oblivious to the fact that if anyone here has been given the benefit of the doubt given their posting and modding history that would be you, chez. Contrary to the picture you're trying to paint of hysterical anti racists attacking poor innocent Brexiters, it's testament to how broad minded and tolerant people here are that anyone even enters discussions about race with you, knowing full well how unwilling you are to condemn overt racists for reasons never specified.

Jesus.

That's strange, I thought you had him on ignore.

Clearly this fictitious cartoon character you're depicting, who bears no resemblance to any Brexiter anyone's ever met, can't yet be described as wanting to leave for racist reasons.

Poop people stay poor because of an accident at birth and they'll stay poor cos we aren't letting them in!

Not equal.

Meanwhile I'll live a life in luxury cos mum happened to get banged up in Britain.

Gfy.

X = you, we have plenty of evidence of your racism.

**** off.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That was very funny.

I miss something?

Bitters Can we play a game? taken down with extraordinary bluntness and ferocity.

This is very true, and isn't talked about enough anywhere. I wonder why?