Dude, you’re still living in this fantasy land where the tories are negotiating from a position of power. They’re not, and your idea of fair is not shared by EU negotiators. Surely you can see by now that playing ‘hard ball’ is a losing strategy.

IMO softball is proving disastrous.

The worst thing is that when this tragedy reveals itself we have no recourse. And it is a tragedy. And we have no recourse. Current estimates are £1,000 worse off per household per year and any attempt to rejoin the EU would see us surrender the powerful position we enjoyed up until Boris, Mogg and co decided to **** the country over. The disaster unfolding is only a surprise to brexiteers, and even they are coming to the realisation that ‘we are all ****ed’.

Lol of course it is! You can blame your cabinet for that.

I do

But what did you think was going to happen?

Let's put this simply. I want to live in a country where people can vote out decision makers who make bad decisions.

I don't want the decision making to be remote and unresponsive... As the EU is now, and is likely to become even more so in future.

It complains about populism, yet consistently takes a 'we know better' attitude to its citizens, because of the democratic disconnect.

It's a failure IMO, and is a threat to the people of Europe in the long term, as its structures are evolving towards a fascist bent.

Unreal. So we still haven't progressed from vague, unsubstantiated platitudes. I really do despair. None of the above even answers the question. See you in a couple of weeks for more of the same.

Hard brexit, if no decent deal.

Decent deal isn't even possible now, May's nonsense saw to that

"Decent" deal wouldn't have been possible anyway no country who joined the EU then decided to leave is going to get a decent deal. If anything the EU would play total hardball simply to discourage other nations thinking of doing the same thing.

This has been covered a few times, and it's one of the few points that most people itt agree on. With the recent popularity of anti-EU sentiments on the continent it becomes even more imperative from the EU's perspective that they don't give the UK a good deal..

I agree, but I think it would have been worth at least playing ball. If bad deal is all that's on the table, then no deal is best. (May seems to have been backed into the 'bad deal' she said was worse than no deal, the imbecile). Rip off the plaster, because that sucker will just fester and be a source of infection the longer it stays on.

and the rising anti-EU sentiment tells you everything you need to know about how well the EU democratically represents its citizens imo...

No, the rising anti-EU sentiment tells you only about how badly economically many EU citizens have been doing post 2008, and how easily they blame their woes on immigration having been sold that line by right wing media and extremist politicians, all of whom have enormous vested interests in maintaining the current trend of profiteering by the 0.1% at the expense of normal income earners.

I'm going to dissent to a large extent. If the perception is that you are correct then that's only going to increase the strength of the anti-EU forces in various countries.

If things turn nasty in the negotiations (which is somewhat likely), we should fully expect a big part of the argument being that it's because the evil EU are trying to punish us rather than find a good deal. It will be a powerful argument if it comes down to a general election with the tories campaigning for 'lets just leave'. The similar 'evil EU' argument will play well with anti-EU sentiment in all countries

The reality is far more the complete lack of anything remotely like a good deal. The tories are all over the place (so are labour), the UK is hopelessly split on it and the 'good deal' is most likely mythical anyway.

This can continue long after May if necessary.

What is a good deal iyo and do you think there's any sort of majority for it in the uk?

I personally only want 2 things, the rest I'm relatively easy on: Ability to make own trade deals + no primacy of EU Law.

Oh and nothing that resembles a punishment beating rather than a reasonable settlement.

I have no idea what the majority want, that's what I'd hope we get.


And i know it's easy to mock the trade deal thing cos there's nothing coming down the pipe, but for the long-term, absolutely nothing is more vital than being able to do this for the economic well being of the countries that make up GB once the dust settles.

I'm no interested in the mocking thing but I would like to know what the good deal is that delivers those two things.

How does it significantly differ from no deal?

I’d like to know what makes anyone think we’d be able to negotiate better trade deals on our own rather than as a bloc. Unless of course the underlying assumption is that the EU negotiates bad trade deals for itself, or that they negotiate deals that favour products that the UK doesn’t export.

What is the good deal that delivers those two things? Erm, it's the good deal where those two things are delivered....

Not sure what you're asking.

Why wouldn't they negotiate deals that favour products the UK doesn't export? They have 27 other countries to consider....

Anyway....I don't think we'll have better deals per se, but I do know we'll have deals in place way faster than the glacial pace of the EU do deals. And most important, we'll decide what deals we have, not the EU... (It makes me laugh that there was a sudden spurt of deals when brexit happened. Lit a fire under the EU negotiation team for sure...but that won't last).


It's really really important (IMO) for nations to be able to cut their own deals, rather than be beholden to some centralised agency to determine what it thinks is good for 28 countries, rather than 1 country. Countries' economies live and die by trade deals - why on earth would a country give that up? It's as ridiculous as a country giving up control of its currency imo, but that's another story...

I DGAF what trading terms and conditions suit Italy or France or Austria for example, I care about what suits GB.

gjge

"I don't care how good our trade deals are, and I accept they will be worse, but at least we won't be beholden to the EU!!!!"

Genius

Seriously do you guys see no long term downside to increasing centralisation of direct and indirect power into the EU project?

Is the growing anti EU sentiment in Europe something best ignored?

And you want us to Leave?