And for people with no option to remove those in power by force of the ballot box? Ffs none the main parties will even stand candidates here.

Also, why should England have the privilege of ****ing things up for at least 2 regions in the UK, against a proven majorities wishes? Shouldn't they have to get their own house in order first - Ireland for the Irish and Scotland for the Scottish - before ruining the good thing we both have going with the EU and the access to their funds (which have built every road in Ireland since I can remember).

Don't really understand inflation and economics but I do understand what I can get for my £ and all that'd be is 1 ****ing € as of Monday afternoon.

Stick brexit up yer hole.

http://newsthump.com/2017/10/26/gove...gainst-brexit/

Benn really hits the nail on the head here (yeah, I know it's old).

In all seriousness, and I realise that there are dumb and clever people on both sides, but I wonder what the average IQ gap is between leavers and remainers.

Why? If whatever the truth is doesn't suit your argument, you wouldn't care, right?

It is 100% given that leavers have a lower IQ on average, so its just curiosity to know the extent of the gap, no way is a remainer ever going to be confronted with the information that they are in the lower IQ cohort.

Came here for the embarrasment.

Not sure what you mean by that. Most remainers would rather that leaving went well, if that is going to happen anyway. Not everyone is very well off so can be assumed to do OK in any reasonable scenario.

We know that there is a link between education levels, and I'm increasingly suspecting that the gap is wider than people initially thought.

The rise of stupidism is real and upon us.

You're in the right place.

A feel it's necessary to motivate stupid.

You have Swizerlanded the UK for decades. A bigger tragedy though.

Sorry you had to benchmark the bad example. We will pull you back, not formally, but practically, when reason wins. It's a reasonable offer. You screwed yourselves . We'll forgive.

Why being that critical in the first place? You ****ed up this so, so badly.

Grow up. You will. And we'll understand you faulted. A bit like the voting for Trump.

The Brexit people are like the children. Needing to be taken care of.

If it was the case, would you care?

Just repeating my question, cos you failed to answer it. I guess it wasn't clear to you it was a question.

Are you the only one defending Brexit, diebitter?

Relax.

Good to see the old 'people that don't think like me must be stupid' demonisation still on track.

I personally try to see the point of remainers' arguments. I was relaxed when the result was looking like 52% remain, 48% leave, because it at least showed a very solid proportion of people were in no way committed to the EU, and the referendum would have had at least diffused the power of the far right (unlike the rest of Europe under the EU). I understand that staying is comfortable, we can all trade within Europe more easily etc. I just feel being able to vote out governments and vote in governments that could withdraw bad legislation rather than put up with it is more important than you, is all. I'll take clear accountability and democratic power over an easy life.

Mainly I loathe the EU because it is always pushing for more EU, and centralisation of powers, and ultimately absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I have a longer term view than you, perhaps?

But maybe not. I may be wrong. I'm open to that possibility. But I think it's worth leaving the EU now before it becomes totally dominant over British politics and policy, and we cannot get rid of it without, effectively, insurrection.

Why don't you try thinking of it from the leaver's point of view, just as a thought experiment. If you're feeling really ambitious, try and imagine being tarnished as a racist sub-intelligent person because you believe in a certain fundamental principle which you think is an important tenet of freedom from tyranny.

go on, you might surprise yourself.

UK is so history. You just...didn't understand the way forward.

You sacrificed yourselves for making the EU stronger. Not necessary. We'd have liked to have you on board.

You will be the only one outside of those already in.

The word dinosaur?

Somebody invented the phrase: ****ing oneself.

We could have gone more global. You hindered that, directed the spotlight towards yourselves. Some important years lost.

In the end you just couldn't co-operate. Sad story. But you will just be remembered as one mistake on the way. You have to admit you ****ed up badly? In the big picture it's a fart though. Smelling bad, but you get over it.

With all due respect, I doubt that you know what is going on re the embarrassing shambles that make up the UK's Brexit negotiators. There is plenty of info out there from real experts, and you won't find many supporting Brexit in general - though some will - but virtually nobody without a vested interest supports the government's position. It's not utopia or dystopia, but it is very clear that the UK will suffer economically and as ever the poorest will be hit worst. Perhaps you don't care though, Brexit at any price will do.

We know that there is a link between supporting Brexit and lack of education. This is a fact. You can't really deny it, though it doesn't in itself mean that either side is right or wrong.

You will also note that many of the key Tories pushing for Brexit are pretty dim - eg Leadsom and Duncan-Smith (actually he is very dim). You can even consider two who are generally regarded as being two of the smartest - Johnson and Redwood. Their degrees are in the classics and history. They are smart for sure, but look at the mindless garbage they come out - it's clear that Redwood, especially, doesn't really understand what is going on. He gets torn to shreads by actual experts in trade or economics.

It really is the blind leading the blind, after a referendum result influenced by incorrect and racist reporting by many ****ty publications. So, yes, whatever you think about Brexit the referendum result was largely the result of stupidity and the UK governments shambolic negotiating since then is also (though the divide in Tory party is playing it's part, obviously).

I am talking about a strong correlation here, and wondering how strong it is. That is not saying that anyone who supports Brexit is dumb (or indeed racist).

Interesting thing about academic economics is that those with the most expertise and those with no expertise consider the theories to have a similar value. Those in the middle have an uneducated overconfidence. Probably even more so if they get their economics from uni-group Facebook memes. So the low-IQ leavers are right for the wrong reason, and the mid-IQ remainers are wrong for the wrong reason, but also smug about it. I think that's worse.

History is a great subject for an opinion on Brexit.

Industry does not agree with academia on most economics, and if academic economists could make worthwhile predictions, they'd all be billionaires instead of scraping by trying to get funding to run a survey amongst undergrads.

I don't care so much about education. What's more disturbing is the stupid concept of Brexit. Don't know what's more lunatic: voting for Trump or Brexit. Trump will be gone in 3 years, Brexit in 30. If Trump is 10 times badder, then the global sadness balance is equal.

Don't follow the first para, but I'm pretty sure that most industry experts agree with the academics here.

Also, academics can earn decent money. And they can do it in a low stress atmosphere without needing to be dynamic. It's a life that suits some people.

Edit - history is a great subject for an opinion on Brexit? No matter what is actually being studied? Wow. Some history experts are beyond hopeless at logic and economics. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it gives no evidence that people like Redwood have any idea what they are talking about. His Tweets actually give conclusive proof that he doesn't though in their own right.

UK, remember many "high IQ" persons also voted for Brexit.

They can be at least as far off. They just have to concentrate their intellect in a certain (flawed) direction. Being a bit old-fashioned. Not grasping globalization, hindering it, delaying favorable development.

Being egocentric. Sitting in their glass tower. Content with themselves. Maybe lords?

I don't know his opinions, you might be right. But I think the economic issues here are short term and self correcting (and Britain is rich enough it won't affect utility). I think the important issues are socio-political about authority structures and complex living systems and stuff, and history is probably our best resource.

For fun, borrowed from a fund manager's blog (i.e. paid, working, economics expert)

http://thepriceofeverything.typepad....californeu.pdf

Eh, I see nothing wrong with the concept whatsoever - people have been worried for many years about parliament handing over apparently non-revokable power to the centralising EU and know instinctively the borrowed power of politicians should not be given away just because Major or Blair got properly schmoozed by the EUrocracy.

The concept is a solid one, and seems to be our only recourse to jump off the EU train cos it's going places we don't like - though the execution of it seems to be going terribly.

Then again, I'm all for Scotland having another referendum based on changing circumstances, and for Catalonia to be granted a legitimate referendum, cos I believe in self-determination at a national and cultural-coherent regional level.

Interesting how the EU, a place of principle apparently, favours one cos it works in its favour politically, and tries to ignore the other because it will hurt its moneytrain.

Eh, you really don't feel that handing power to Brussels is a bad idea - I could be wrong, but you'd prefer to happen even faster, right?

Personally, I think long term it's a catastrophic idea.

At least we're both allowed to express those opinions freely and wihout fear of recourse at the moment, so that's a big plus for Western Civilisation.

Don't get me started on Fund managers and traders. I know two, distant family connections - heavy public school, pushed by their dad etc - and they now work in that field. Nice guys but as dull as dishwater!

Nobody knows about the long term. Some reports think that it will actually get worse then, but unless you are very confident a long term gain it makes no sense to sacrifice so much in the short/medium term (and that's before you consider that what could make things better in the long term usually won't imply that leaving now is a good idea).

If it is a long term argument, which I don't buy personally, then it's odd that young/old voters have been so split but there we go.

It's also worth remarking that intelligent people like Redwood have such zeal for brexit that they are perfectly capable of deliberately lying to further their cause.

Yes for sure, Johnson and Rees-Mogg too. Some of Redwood's Tweets are mind blowing though.