First he argues that the EU is undemocratic and then he is angry that the EU didnt react to far right surges in Austria and the Netherlands. Well as long as there is no majority why should the EU adapt? So that means is he isnt really interested in democratic as long as a minority which thinks like him gets their way and influences EU policy more than they should be able to.

So you are okay that it should continue as is without change until a democratic majority of the far right is elected somewhere because the people have no legitimately democratic way to alter its trajectory to superstate? Lol

honestly if people knew how much of what they thought was eu bureaucracy was actually decided and voted on by the nation states in the council etc. remain would have won 60-40

diebitter goes on about the eu swamp and lack of democracy, but i bet he has no clue about how decisions are actually made

basically everything important gets decided by the member states and juncker/barnier/commissioners are mostly comparable to normal civil servants. they're just doing what theyre told

Yes since this minority of far right is against refugees and foreigners I think its wise to just dont give a ****. If this opinion becomes a majority something would be really off in Europe and I would either move to a different continent or fight against these clowns.
I also dont know how you think we are on a way to a superstate. I would love an united Europe but there is simply no majority for that. Nobody wants to give up power or wealth which would be necessary so that a superstate would work.

Thats the main problem right now in my eye. Once these far right parties became strong all other parties moved right. There are simply very few parties who stick to their believes. So many changed their views so they could stay in power. Nobody offered an alternative. For example in Germany people from the SPD(social-democratic party) and even the greens voiced their concerns with the number of refugees. Or Baden-Wuerttemberg has a premier from the Greens. He should be pro environment but since his state has big car industry he now doesnt want to follow that line anymore. He simply wants to stay in power and everything that could hurt the car industry is not desired.

I can say exactly the same of the UK so how did brexit help you prevent this. And you are still coming back to the democratic system of the EU which you are obviously clueless on. The only change brexit is going to achieve for the UK is less foreigners who I expect are still going to get blamed for the economic downturn brexit is causing.

Re: "trade wall"

There is a wall around the EU free trade zone like there is around any non-EU nation / free trade zone. Being outside that wall makes it harder to trade with the EU but it doesn't make it easier to trade with non-EU nations / trade zones.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41172505

No more dirty immigrants taking our jobs!

'No more immigrants' seems to be the only thing the tory bastards are consistent on regarding brexit. But it's all about taking sovereignty back.

I mean does the NHS really need staffing? I'm sure plenty of brits will be lining up to wipe incontinent 90 year olds arses for minimum wage.

Except for the part where they're seizing 'Henry VIII' powers to change primary legislation without the consent of Parliament -- which is a kind of 'sovereignty', but the wrong kind. The head-chopping kind.

I wonder how many of the Brexiters who are oh so concerned about democracy protested the House of Lords.

Of course it does. For example we currently have to self-harm with up to 16% tariffs on oranges from outside the EU in order to protect producers in other member states. After we leave (if we leave properly) we can just buy whatever's best for us.

@marty, when you see the Irish border question being negotiated between an Englishwoman and Frenchman, do you still think Ireland is an independent country?

Who is a Brexiteer?

If you mean people like Boris Johnson no they aren't consistent about it, but that's a good reason not to vote for people like that.

If you mean typical ordinary people who voted in the referendum then no, they didn't protest the EU either they just voted when given a chance - as they would probably vote against the HoL if there was ever referendum. Most people don't really protest stuff much they vote but otherwise get on with their own lives.

If you mean people ITT. I'm not sure if sounding off ITT counts as protesting the EU but if you start an abolish the HoL thread I'll sound off in that thread too, though I suspect more or less everyone on 2p2 will be of the same opinion.

i love that "we dont need a deal. wto terms are just fine" and "the eu is a trade wall" are both themes on the brexit side.

the truth is tariffs are not that important in the world today, but non-tariff barriers matter a good deal. that also means the inevitable fta will be much worse for everyone than single market membership.

Lol if you think the Irish government will have no say.

It's a team effort, don't see why it should be an issue.

Much prefer a French dude (our partner not master ffs) talking on our behalf than more English men.

'partner'. lol.

Ask Greece if they feel like partners.

You don't gaf about Greece, not sure you give a **** about the UK either tbh.

It is still debatable if Greece would have been better off never joining the EU. People seem to forget what Greece was like before they joined.

Nice avoidance of key point by riffing on your own warped world view.

You never disappoint.

remember the time the euro countries tried to bail out greece with €200bn in loans and the uk tried to block it, despite not having to spend any money, because it would temporarily use an eu fund?

https://euobserver.com/economic/129637

greece shouldnt have joined the euro and the situation is horrible, but the euro countries did give them a massive amount of money in cheap loans while the uk and everyone else did nothing to help

So are you saying Greece are more like partners, or more a country bound to indentured servitude for the foreseeable future? Which of the 2 is most accurate?

partners. and getting a massive amount of very cheap loans, with medium strict conditions, in a situation where nobody else would help them (and the uk tried to block that help despite not really having anything at stake)

Well, they sure are doing great then I guess. Bless the EU for the wonderful way they help Greece.

You're the right wing racist crackpot with the warped world view, get it right.

youre so dense

the situation is horrible and they shouldnt have joined the euro but when youre asking for a couple hundred billion € in cheap loans then the negotiation is going to be a bit one-sided. they got much much better terms than ukraine or any other non-eu country in world have gotten on bailout loans