Brexit Referendum - Page 283 - Politics and Economics

in the past it was correct. these days it's wrong. there are no milk quotas.

the CAP used to be terrible. today it's only bad.

(that's in general. i dont get the complains about foreign milk. do these people want to keep foreign products out? if so it's hard to blame the CAP for anything)

02-16-2017 , 05:18 AM

#7053

LordJvK

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So because it's now only bad rather than terrible, eu = good?

02-16-2017 , 05:21 AM

#7054

daca

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

So because it's now only bad rather than terrible, eu = good?

nah the EU was good even when the cap was terrible

02-16-2017 , 05:35 AM

#7055

LektorAJ

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

So because it's now only bad rather than terrible, eu = good?

He was directly answering your question about whether it was correct or incorrect, not trying to sneak in a wider point.

02-16-2017 , 05:39 AM

#7056

LordJvK

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I'm honestly thinking I voted the wrong way at the moment.

02-16-2017 , 05:50 AM

#7057

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

If your posts itf reflect your honest opinions then you probably voted the wrong way, yeah. In the bigger picture you got it right by accident, so that's some solace.

02-16-2017 , 05:51 AM

#7058

AllTheCheese

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

I'm honestly thinking I voted the wrong way at the moment.

You did in terms of who you actually are.

02-16-2017 , 05:52 AM

#7059

daca

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for some reason basically every rich country in the world has terrible agricultural policies. farmers are great at protests i guess.

norway has both the biggest subsidies in the world and occasional shortages of basic goods for example. in comparison the cap is not even that bad.

02-16-2017 , 06:24 AM

#7060

LordJvK

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What part of this is wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

the current situation for the UK under EU rulings seems to be something like this:

"Estonia first"

"Some other country that is not the UK first"

And the situation after Brexit seems like it is going to be:

"UK first"

And of course Trump said:

Please explain this to me:

Country X produces Y amount of product Z.

Country X has A need for product Z

A-Y= B amount of shortage or excess

- Country X signs a deal with Country C to sell B in the event of excess
- Country X signs another deal with Country D to buy B in the event of shortage

WIN!

Currently this does not seem to be what happens under EU rules.

It's more like this:

Country X produces Y amount of product Z.

Country X is given quota Q for product Z

Y-Q = waste which cannot be sold

The need is filled by "the single market".

02-16-2017 , 06:43 AM

#7061

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

Well, you are proposing that goods are only traded if there is a shortage/excess of that good in a particular country, no matter how inefficient that may be.

So, how does that work exactly? If someone starts to farm Olives in the UK, spending tons of energy because the climate isn't quite right, do UK consumers have to stick to those Olives even if they are 10x more expensive?

That doesn't seem like a very efficient setup tbh.

02-16-2017 , 06:49 AM

#7062

LordJvK

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Other more efficient olive farmers will win out.

02-16-2017 , 06:56 AM

#7063

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

Cool, so the UK will be sourcing olives, oranges, tobacco and coffee locally. No matter what you do re: efficiency, those goods are going to be way more expensive because you need insane amounts of energy to emulate the required climate. But since you have a protected market someone is going to pick that up for a huge profit.

Energy providers will also enjoy the new demand, so it's a win/win. (Well, maybe not for consumers. But who needs coffee anyway?)

02-16-2017 , 06:59 AM

#7064

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

I look forward to the lucrative olive black market.

Last edited by O.A.F.K.1.1; 02-16-2017 at 07:07 AM.

02-16-2017 , 07:01 AM

#7065

LordJvK

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Black olive market!

02-16-2017 , 07:02 AM

#7066

LordJvK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plexiq

Obviously it will not be sourcing products it cannot grow locally.

02-16-2017 , 07:04 AM

#7067

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

I'm convinced you could source these locally if you truly had a protected market, it's just less efficient. I picked some extreme examples, but the same is true for plenty of other products. So where/how do you draw the line?

02-16-2017 , 07:06 AM

#7068

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

Black olive market!

Would you say Black tobacco market?

The point that went whoosh, is that obviously huge black markets would flourish in all the goods being mentioned.

Well maybe not olives.

02-16-2017 , 07:09 AM

#7069

LordJvK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by plexiq

Common sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1

Would you say Black tobacco market?

Was making a pun. Get it "black olives".

02-16-2017 , 07:14 AM

#7070

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

Common sense

This has no modality though.

You either let the dispassionate logic of the market decide, or the decision is politicised and decided by committee and other such bureaucratic processes, common sense rarely emerges if ever from such.

Its fine if you want to argue their is some other net benefit from protectionism, but its amazingly naive to think which products will be protected and which freely traded will somehow be optimally decided abra cadabra by common sense.

02-16-2017 , 07:15 AM

#7071

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

Common sense

Elaborate please, how would that common sense rule look like?

Would that be some generalized rule, or does some government agency go through products one by one and decide?

02-16-2017 , 07:16 AM

#7072

LordJvK

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One by one and decide.

02-16-2017 , 07:17 AM

#7073

O.A.F.K.1.1

Ted Patrick

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 27,952

lol.

02-16-2017 , 07:24 AM

#7074

plexiq

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Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,554

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

One by one and decide.

Just arbitrarily decide based on "common sense".

*) Freedom: Government decides for you if you can buy Spanish olives
*) Small government: An army of gov employees hand picking products that are allowed for import
*) All of this done arbitrarily based on "common sense", without any hard rules. No potential for bribery/lobbying there.

Your vision of the UK makes EU inefficiencies/bureaucracy look like a stroke of genius.

02-16-2017 , 07:27 AM

#7075

daca

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LordJvK

Quote:

Currently this does not seem to be what happens under EU rules.

It's more like this:

Country X produces Y amount of product Z.

Country X is given quota Q for product Z

Y-Q = waste which cannot be sold

What part of this is wrong?

this isnt true btw. there are only quotas in places where you need to avoid tragedy of the commons style market failures. so in fishing where over-fishing eradicating fishing stocks would be the result of a free market and in co2 where the externalities are that we all die if there are no limits. it could be regulated in other ways too, with taxes for example, but the result would be about the same.

there are not quotas on how many x,y,z a country can produce.

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