aka hypocrisy

This was a fascinating listen for me this morning: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02...uropean-union/

It's all about the Sugar beet industry, and a lot of things I did not know.

Main takeaways:

- EU sets quotas for manufacturers which essentially acts as a cap on what they can export. So if there is a high yield year, a British sugar beet manufacterer has no choice but to store the sugar.
- Quotas are set in such a way that protects exports from poor countries who rely on sugar.

To me, this is protectionism but geared in such a way that benefit the interests of poorer countries (almost a form of aid or "international development") and which disadvantages manufacturers in a place such as the UK.

Doesn't seem fair or right that a sugar manufacturer should have their potential capped by quotas. They just aren't even allowed to export to other markets, and have to trade in unfair conditions, while sugar is government subsidised in other places.

Some interesting talk also of Australian sugar industry. Thought the whole thing was fascinating.

All of it is making me think more that I made a mistake when I voted Remain last June. I don't agree to signing up to a set of rules which benefit other countries at the expense of industry in my own country.

Yeah you wouldn't, because you're a self-centered ****.

Revealing though not surprising that a kid like you hasn't heard of the agricultural quotas when they were part of the CAP that gave rise to butter mountains and wine lakes for decades.


And from the same Spectator source...

ashamed-to-be-british

I think he means you.

So Jalfrezi, real talk, you advocate gaming economies in such a way to disadvantage British companies?

The whole agricultural policy of the EU should be re-examined ie not sugar beet in isolation - it's one of many things that are wrong about the EU that even Remainers like me wanted to reform.

Incentivising EU farmers to under-produce in a world where millions suffer from malnutrition is a modern obscenity.

But now that the UK is out, a British sugar beet manufacturer won't even have to worry about complying with any of that nonsense.

Why is that not a good thing? Even under WTO rules, they'd be freer than they are currently.

I didn't listen to that 25 minutes podcast, but without looking at the figures I doubt that the UK would be able to compete on price with other exporters eg Caribbean countries when it comes to sugar beet, so I'm not sure it's worth talking about.

And if the UK can compete, what does that say about wages here (even after taking into account transportation costs etc)?

Please explain how you think reform would take place? Realistically?

If it thought that the EU was even possible to reform meaningfully given its structural flaws and immutable 'ideals', I'd have definitely voted remain.

They discussed this in particular. It's a really interesting topic.

Sugar costs in the UK are actually pretty low, and obviously the tech is much more efficient than in some of those other countries.

But there is also scope within the market for a high-end product and a low-end product, cost is not the ONLY consideration for the consumer.

So they wouldn't always be competing directly with the bargain basement sugar operations anyway.

I do like your hand waving of a whole industry's concerns though.

Reform has been on-going since its inception in the late 50's. Looks like you voted the wrong way according to this.

eg from CAP

etc, etc

A country can't agitate for reform once it's left the EU.

The biggest post brexit concern for british "sugar beet manufacturers" aka farmers will be getting access to non-UK workers.
Growers rely on itinerant seasonal workers most of whom are from Eastern Europe. Before Bulgaria and Romania became part of the EU they relied on the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme which allowed them to import labour under strict permits.
Also to my knowledge the only ones who don't depend on CAP subsidies are spud growers.
So yeah - it'll all be rosy as long as we allow them to bring in immigrant seasonal workers from eastern europe and make sure the CAP subsidies are replaced by other subsidies.

In 2017, people on the left think it's awful to think that your own county's economy should be set up primarily for its own interests.

Oh how "selfish". I mean WTF?

Jalfrezi, I want you to explain what you meant by the "selfish" comment.

This ongoing centralisation that obviously follows a federalist agenda is what you call reform then?

I think I voted correctly.

Yep, first step is to replace, second step is to reform gradually in such a way as to minimize shocks (something the Tories have not been that good at historically, but we'll see).

The summer after Brexit there'll still be all manner of people from Europe working in the fields, hospitals and everywhere else. It won't be the cliff edge shock that project fear said it would be.

Presumably to be consistent you'd cancel the foreign aid budget (0.7% GDP)?

the CAP is idiotic but it has slowly been reformed and getting better, especially the last 20-30 years. there are forces pushing for an end to it and we're probably getting nearer to having it phased out. subsidies as a share of gdp have fallen from 2.6% in 1986 to 0.7% today.

I never answer people's demands - it's a way of teaching spoilt kids some manners.

Focus on what I actually say, not on what you imagine or presume I say.

So - about that itinerant foreign labour our farmers are totally dependent on?
Good? Bad? Let them in? Keep them out?

It'll solve the problem of quotas as all the produce will be rotting in the ground without them.

If the native Brits won't do that work because the wages are so low that you're better off on the dole and claiming housing benefit, then clearly the UK needs foreign seasonal workers who are prepared to live four or more to a room. What a world. Roll on UBI.

Let's see if there really is a labour shortage when we get there.

One of things we know this government will do is make sure the UNCAPPED (they argued hard for that) single payment farming subsidy is replaced so as to continue lining the pockets of wealthy landowners.
http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/201...st-landowners/

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Meaning what? That you think Brits will do this low paid agricultural work?

It was good enough for students to do as holiday work when I were a lad, but it seems not any more (I guess wages have dropped in real terms since then).