Lol

I think it should be possible to have an adult conversation about immigration without talking about racism or xenophobia. And that Brexit happened because shouting down and those labels prevented that conversation from taking place over a long time.

I think the containment of populism is now a top priority.

This equivalency of Europe == EU is ridiculous.

I sympathise.

Labour = unelectable
Liberal = EU solves everything (snd totally untrustworthy)
Tory = Leaving EU solves everything
UKIP = unspeakable


I don't like much of any of them either. Cos they're all dead ends or wrong.

That's basically it in a nutshell.

I work at a university so fees is an important issue for me. I voted for Lib Dem in 2010 after Clegg ran on a platform to scrap fees. He became deputy PM and introduced a 9k fee cap that crippled U.K. Universities in a completely unsustainable system.

I am Welsh, so it sticks in my craw to vote Tory ever.

I no longer have anyone I can vote for. I abstained for the first time in 2015.

Homogeneity of legislative and political environments would kill innovation and adaptability in those areas.

Exclusive trade deals are illiberal, and are especially poor when they are with a set of the world's least innovative countries.

Committees make poor decisions, and the EU's decision making framework is paralysed, particularly by protectionism.

1-size fits all policy is unsuitable for the variety of environments in the EU.

Cultural fit between constituent countries is weak, so chance of integration succeeding is small.

All of the arguments that apply to devolving power to the national parliaments in the UK and to local councils apply to not centralising it in the EU.

The EU is too large and complex a unit of analysis to be successfully centrally planned, a marketplace of smaller units has a better chance of success.

... just a few off the top of my head.

Some things that are logically inconsistent include European leaders saying that the UK will be worse off outside the EU, and then adding that EU trade policy should include punishment to reduce the benefit. Or claiming to be pro free-trade, as long as its not with the world's largest or fastest growing economies. Or saying that open borders make the labour market more efficient, but that there is no downward pressure on wages.

Did you post anything here about it?

Tbh though the problem you have is a wider version of one you address in your "as a XYZ" thread. Argumentation by autobiography is not logically valid (the arguments either hold water or don't regardless of who makes them).

Just cut out the autobiographical stuff and say what you think.

I wish Nicola Sturgeon was PM of a coalition government.

Would you accept though that there was a certain amount of pressure to when people in the thread were accusing me of being a dishonest Trumpian alt right type somehow in disguise?

I mean I think people should be able to post freely without facing accusations like that.

Which basically boils down to idea of a Northern EU. Let the rich nations of Europe remain together and the poor countries can do what they want. What a nice outlook. Not just racism is a factor but also the fact that nobody wants to share. It also fits the picture with a lot of poker players who often enough start crying about the possibility of getting taxed and therefore move to countries where the can avoid or reduce taxes.

The other problem is that resources aren't equally allocated. If the UK hadn't so much oil I doubt there would even be a discussion about a Brexit. The more resources you have the quicker the discussion starts that independence might be better.

That always depends what you expect. For me it would be enough if they speak the language and respect the ours laws. But if you expect everyone to share into your drinking culture, want everyone to eat pork, love to celebrate our holidays then only a minority will ever be successfully integrated.

About the other topic: Merkel.

I dont deny the fact that Merkel is often viewed as so go to Guy/Woman on important issues. Germany is the biggest contributor to the EU so of course our goverment expects to have a big influence on EU decisions. We have a strong industry but rely too much on export. France and Spain with their huge youth unemployment should much louder discuss the fact that our success is built on wages which didnt kept up with productivity. We mainly focus on the production of investment goods or expensive luxury goods. So thats nothing where you can just switch from export to sell these goods mainly in Germany. The stuff we import from the EU like food has no big margins. Other stuff like cloth and electronics is mainly produced in Asia.

So now we have this problem that big rich industry is focused on Germany. So there are different possibilites. We increase our wages so other countries can compete for the jobs. Unfortunatly I think these jobs rather move east than west. So that wont help France, Spain, Italy or Greece.
Rebuilding all the factories also consumes resources so I think its better where they are and I also think we can produce the stuff most efficiently so its best they remain here. So now European workers could move towards these jobs. Travel distances in Europe are often shorter than travelling from East to West in the US. Or Germany taxes this rich companies more and distributes this wealth throughout Europe. Doesnt sound great. It would create dependence and nobody will feel good about the situation. One side doesnt want to pay for lazy Europeans and the rest dont want to be reduced to receivers at the mercy of some rich countries.

So I can understand the frustration among people who think they are losers despite our countries getting richer. But the part I dont understand that they vote for parties that are even more captialistic than most governments right now. Germany's AFD for example wants to reduce taxes, cut welfare and thinks that women should stay at home. UKIP wasn't much different. From what I read they were also heavily pro business and anti-environment.
Has it ever worked out? For years now Germany defends the interests of our car industry. And what happened? They still cheat and put lots of jobs in jeopardy.

But its always easier to assume that immigrants are the root of all evil.

The argument I'm seeing against Germany though is not solely about migration (which has just pressed buttons), but about how it has exploited the exchange rate of the Euro for its own ends.

The argument goes that the DM would be a lot higher than the Euro if it was still around, but the weaker economies that are part of it keep it lower. Still too high for a place like Italy, and way too high for a place like Greece, but low for Germany.

This means German exports are favoured.

Isn't this basically true? And if so, why would any of those other countries who aren't benefiting in this way want to stay part of it?

I don't mean literal day-to-day social integration, I mean big cultural differences that would make a single political leadership unpalatable to most citizens.

For example, I'm not sure the British would tolerate French, German, Italian labour laws preventing employment and innovation under the alias of 'rights'. We don't generally share that culture of progress prevention (e.g. Uber, driverless cars, drone delivery, even screw top wine bottles, does better here). So why be a miserable minority voter in a continental system? Just run separate environments.

And I know we do currently do that. But despite a campaign that portrayed remaining as the safe known situation, we have no idea what horrors would have awaited and we could not control it. The example above is just one that worried me and seemed especially likely.

if you leave out the word exploited you would be closer to the truth. germany is pushing for a stronger euro which is the opposite of the way people claim it helps germany (the euro being weaker than the d-mark would be). and they were forced into it in the first as the price of reunification.

i also dont see how a weaker than it should be currency is a good thing. you're basically giving stuff away cheaper than you have to.

@ Alex - Social cohesion is a major concern and one that needs to be addressed sensibly without people wildly throwing around accusations of racism at the drop of a hat.

I was pleased to see the Dame Casey report on this matter.

At the very very basic level: if you have a lot of people in your country whose primary allegiance is not to that country, it can be a problem if there is minimal integration.

It can work. For example, London sort of works on this basis of being outward facing and "global". But I'm not sure it can work on a national basis, and if people feel their core values and ways of life being threatened they feel ... well, threatened.

This has nothing to do with xenophobia and it needs to be addressed sensibly.

Fwiw it's also seen as Merkel in the local press in the V4 countries.

No, it's usually thick far left people angrily protesting something they incorrectly see as an injustice by wrongly calling dissenters Neo fascists and racists and all the ists .. all because they disagree with your dumb views

SJW: This airport is racist! Its pollution impacts blacks negatively F WYPIPO CRACKERS

Everyone with a brain : You're effing idiots

Leftists: You're alt right are neo nazis why do you hate black people?

I fall firmly on the left of the political spectrum yet I am no doubt an Alt right and neo fascist misogynist because I don't blindly agree with every idiot leftists warped view on every single issue

I realise its hyperbole, but please link to what is referred to in the bolded. It does happen from time to time, but the idea that such things really have any social power or agency is what basically makes the alt right and users of the phrase SJW absurd in the first place.

SK, we now live in a world in which people point blank won't believe you are really on the left and will instead accuse you of being an alt right infiltratior somehow posing as a leftist.

It is a level of insanity I honestly didn't think possible.

You realise that posters in this forum have admitted to doing the above.

Again, given how your positions are often diametrically opposed to your autobiographical statements, its safe to say you are disingenuous, at best you are just dumb and naive.

Lol at the whole infiltrator thing though.

I know and as you said earlier it's a total lack of nuance by supposedly smart people on the left driven by what I believe to be a rabid and false sense of moral superiority.

I have no idea what your posting history is and whether OAFK is on to something but the whole burn the heretic thing is a pretty common phenomenon among the so called tolerant morally good political left these days

We can talk about whether Brexit voters are less intelligent or whatever, but what can be said without ambiguity is that anyone who uses the phrase SJW is a raging idiot.

Total gash mate.

There is no burn the heretic.

Insults might have been traded, but there has been plenty of discussion with people on the other side of the fence in this thread and all the others.

There is only a problem when people seem to be telling blatant porkies, if you look at nearly every thread he is in, Lordliealot gets accused of this in nearly all of them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...s-video-report

lol

The point has been made before that they are the new puritans.

If Arthur Miller wrote the Crucible now, Danforth would represent these illberal and intolerant people.

Somewhat ironic the left would become infested by the spirit of McCarthyism. If they were more intelligent they'd feel some sense of embarrassment at that, but it's literally easier for them to believe that a lecturer from London is a clandestine agent of Steve Bannon.

These people are the exact mirror of Trump supporters and I'm worried by the sheer levels of stupidity I'm seeing.

Passive aggressive gash wank.

People can do and can express contrary opinions. What gets attacked is intellectual dishonesty. You get attacked for this in nearly every thread. Its not a coincidence.