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Old 07-24-2016, 10:17 AM   #5001
LektorAJ
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by martymc1 View Post
Diebitter how do you square the need for a British superstate with populations (~50%) in at least two regions that want no part of it?

Self determination when it suits.
English people don't need the other parts hence referenda on independence being available on request.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:19 AM   #5002
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by martymc1 View Post
Diebitter how do you square the need for a British superstate with populations (~50%) in at least two regions that want no part of it?

Self determination when it suits.
Which two regions are those?
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:23 AM   #5003
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Re: Brexit Referendum

marty

I'm happy for them to be their own states. I seen it as inevitable that countries would want self-determination.

That's how I square it.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:24 AM   #5004
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
English people don't need the other parts hence referenda on independence being available on request.
Not quite on request.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36867886

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/lor...poll-1-7489284

--

Jalfrezi...Scotland and the north.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:32 AM   #5005
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Re: Brexit Referendum

The North? I'm pretty sure the North was entirely for leaving.

You're confusing The North with Northern Ireland, entirely different regions.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:33 AM   #5006
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Re: Brexit Referendum

I've never seen any data that shows the North of England in favour of secession.

Now if you'd said London you'd have had more of a point.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:41 AM   #5007
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
I don't believe freedom of movement for services means for a moment that you have to accept freedom of movement of all people. It's that dogma that is the root cause of all this, and will eventually collapse the EU unless it relents IMO.
this talk of relenting I mentioned... some interesting early doors news...


Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-seven-years
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:43 AM   #5008
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
marty

I'm happy for them to be their own states. I seen it as inevitable that countries would want self-determination.

That's how I square it.
So I asked the wrong question.

The people that lead and will implement brexit are steadfast that the union will remain and short shrift has been given to thought of Scotland and the north going it alone....how do you square that?

I mean, May hasn't ****ed up about it.

All I can think is hypocritical ****bags as usual and I'm not sure I believe a little englander such as yourself would really support splitting your glorious union after hundreds of years of domination.

Last edited by martymc1; 07-24-2016 at 10:44 AM. Reason: NI = north lol.
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Old 07-24-2016, 10:53 AM   #5009
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Re: Brexit Referendum

I was sad when they didn't go for independence. They were obv being mugged off by the English elite.

You obv have preconceived ideas about me, so I'll let you argue my side as well as yours in your own posts, you'll be happier that way - you seem the type to get annoyed if people don't fit into the boxes you've made for them.

Hope that goes well!
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:14 AM   #5010
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by diebitter View Post
this talk of relenting I mentioned... some interesting early doors news...


Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK for up to seven years

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-seven-years
We don't know how this will pan out but I really struggle with those who are so convinced there's some immovable line on access to the single market with no possibility of a deal. The level of conviction to the point it's presented as a statement of facts is almost surreal.

A 2nd referendum you say ...
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:01 PM   #5011
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Re: Brexit Referendum

interesting article about how remainers and leavers have changed their thoughts over the last month

What's on the minds of voters since the Brexit result?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...e-minds-voters
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:14 PM   #5012
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by martymc1 View Post
The link says your first minister doesn't want one.

The first few first ministers of Scotland didn't want one so they elected one who did and the referendum took place.

Obviously there are different views in the communities in NI and the Protestants have a built in majority, but your assertion that there is a part of the UK being kept in against its will as a whole isn't true.

As for your question in the other post, I don't need to 'square' the views of people I've never met, never voted for and who'll be gone from politics in a much shorter time than the effects of this referendum will be felt.
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Old 07-24-2016, 12:57 PM   #5013
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Its interesting how the narrative is EU not flexible on immigration, thus they deserved it, when in fact the reality is that the EU offered the UK the chance in 2004 to introduce freedom of movement gradually over ten years but the UK government said NO, full speed ahead scotty.
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Old 07-24-2016, 01:20 PM   #5014
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Its interesting how the narrative is EU not flexible on immigration, thus they deserved it, when in fact the reality is that the EU offered the UK the chance in 2004 to introduce freedom of movement gradually over ten years but the UK government said NO, full speed ahead scotty.
Weren't you one of the guys who argued the 4 freedoms were essential and irreducible?
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Old 07-24-2016, 02:17 PM   #5015
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Re: Brexit Referendum

The thing about a "migration break" is that it doesn't really work that well. Germany took that gradual introduction of the freedom of movement in 2004, but we still had Polish plumbers. They were just self-employed and sub-contracted. This way they can even evade minimum-wage and other labour laws, so even without freedom of movement you will still have people "taking your jobs", if you don't have very restrictive laws on sub-contracting.

The few things that are different are that they have less incentive to learn the language and you mostly get young men instead of young families.
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Old 07-24-2016, 03:43 PM   #5016
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1 View Post
Its interesting how the narrative is EU not flexible on immigration, thus they deserved it, when in fact the reality is that the EU offered the UK the chance in 2004 to introduce freedom of movement gradually over ten years but the UK government said NO, full speed ahead scotty.
Unfortunately the narrative to the leave camp is that our side keep lying and offers nothing positive. We can actually manage to make Boris look more in touch with reality.

The fact the government also lied about immigration and the brexit campaign told huge whoppers doesn't make that narrative any better.
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:27 PM   #5017
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Question From A Yank

I've seen references elsewhere in this thread reporting a (large?) number of MPs resigning from the House of Commons. Voluntary mass resignations of sitting members of Congress are very rare here in the United States, so it's natural to wonder why?

I'm not aware of Theresa May calling an election, so why are MPs resigning? (Can individual MPs be challenged at any time and have to face a "snap election" solely in their respective district or constituency?) Are some of the resigning MPs committed diehard Remainers who want no part in Brexit? Are some of them fearful of being voted out in the next election - when it is called - so they've decided to go ahead and get out before they're thrown out? Are a number of them "fed up" with the recent turn of events and simply decided they've had enough? Are Labour MPs resigning because they think their party is doomed? (Is it a combination of all these factors?)

Curious Alan in America
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Old 07-24-2016, 05:33 PM   #5018
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Re: Brexit Referendum

they are resigning from the shadow cabinet, not from the commons

basically they are resigning from a pretend government job as a protest against corbyn

so when Joe Bloggs, MP for Blahborough North and Shadow Under-Secretary to the Shadow Secretary of Secretarial Affairs (LAB) resigns he becomes simply Joe Bloggs, MP for Blahborough North (LAB)
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:21 PM   #5019
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by BAIDS View Post
they are resigning from the shadow cabinet, not from the commons

basically they are resigning from a pretend government job as a protest against corbyn

so when Joe Bloggs, MP for Blahborough North and Shadow Under-Secretary to the Shadow Secretary of Secretarial Affairs (LAB) resigns he becomes simply Joe Bloggs, MP for Blahborough North (LAB)
BAIDS:

Oh, so I get it - the Labour Party is having a heart attack.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:11 PM   #5020
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon View Post
BAIDS:

Oh, so I get it - the Labour Party is having a heart attack.
More like a giant personality dissection
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:17 AM   #5021
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
Another stupid question.

Eventually I hope that standards of living differences across the whole world will be reduced to such a degree that this would be possible, and national borders could become a thing of the past.
Taking into account the wide disparancies between economies in the EU why do you feel it is appropriate to have such arrangements between all member states at this time?

Or more to the point, why exclude other poor nations (of a similar standing) from free movement between their state and the EU?

Do you not think this would help increase their living standards? Or don't the non EU citizens matter to you?
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:07 AM   #5022
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Re: Brexit Referendum

Once again lol Richdog. The EU does not enforce exclusion for anyone.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:55 PM   #5023
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Re: Brexit Referendum

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Originally Posted by richdog View Post
Taking into account the wide disparancies between economies in the EU why do you feel it is appropriate to have such arrangements between all member states at this time?

Or more to the point, why exclude other poor nations (of a similar standing) from free movement between their state and the EU?

Do you not think this would help increase their living standards? Or don't the non EU citizens matter to you?
Because you can't do everything at once, obviously.


Funny how you truncated my post to exclude a question I asked you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
My current team has people from India, Romania and Bulgaria as well as Brits.

How do you feel about that?
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:36 PM   #5024
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Re: Brexit Referendum

I cant believe this is still going on.

One group like free movement in Europe and would generally probably like to make it easier to immigrate from around the world.

Another group dont want free movement and would generally probably like to make it harder to immigrate from around the world.

but lets talk about how the first group doesnt care about potential immigrants.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:58 PM   #5025
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Re: Brexit Referendum

If you put yourself in the minds of people who believe there has to be a limit on immigrants (or even just accept that the political pressure means that there will be a limit) then it makes sense.
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