Rooksx,

It's worth noting two points:
a) The UK should have an on-going relationship with the EU that suits its preferences; Norway seems like a not terrible starting point - a baseline, as it were. At least things won't be worse than that, you'd expect.

b) Norwegians prefer their current arrangement to becoming a member of the EU. Opinion polls suggest something in the order of 70% in favour of the current arrangements. If you had a situation that 70% of Britons preferred, that would seem like a huge improvement.

But as the article states Norway is still paying money to the EU. Aren't Brexit supporters always arguing how they could spend all the money they could save by leaving? Its easier for Norway because its filthy rich.

Seems like the best way to have a relationship with the EU that suits your preferences is to be in the EU.

Given that the only firm preference that anyone in the Leave camp can actually concretely express is less immigration, doing a Norway wont even fulfill that.

If Brexit fans had a set of nuanced and complex preferences that were frustrated by the EU then you might have a point, but less foreigners is about it.

I may not be popular among Leavers or Remainers for saying this, but this is one of those issues where public opinion shouldn't matter. Membership of the EU is far too complex an issue for the public to come to an informed view, and I do count myself as one of those uninformed people. These are the sort of decisions we elect people to make, not to make ourselves.

I saw an article today that claimed there is strong correlation between those areas that have received the most in EU funds and least immigration and high numbers of OUT voters.

One could extend this argument to pretty much everything that a democracy votes on. The modern world is so complex and interconnected that there's no way the average voter could have a reasonable grasp on the pros and cons of just about anything.

With that said, history is rife with examples of unrepresentative governments sticking to destructive courses of action because the view of the bureaucrats running the show is very different from the view of the man in the street. The EU seems to be evolving into this and I think voters should have the right to reject that if they want to. It's up to politicans and other stakeholders in society to educate the public on the pros and cons as best they can.

But even if people would be 100% educated about issues everyone would have their own agenda. I once read an opinion by a teenager who was involved in developing a revolutionary system to clean oceans who said that people above a certain age shouldn't be allowed to vote anymore. They just have other issues in mind and dont need to care about the future. In a society which gets older on average you can win elections by just caring for the needs of pensioners. So if it would be 100% clear this planet will be a barren wasteland in 100 years if we dont act now do you think that all people would be in favour of allocating money to what is necessary or will they just vote where they are guaranteed increased pensions.

Right, as I said democracy is flawed - but it would seem, to loosely paraphrase Churchill, that the other forms of government are more flawed.

I just wanted to point out that the "people can't possibly understand enough" argument applies not only to this referendum, but to the entire concept of democracy; and it's worthwhile to see if we're just drawing a line between "this one super complex referendum" and "the rest of the things people get to vote on", or if we're just arguing against the viability of democracy in general. You seem to be doing the latter.

Jo Cox, a MP in the 'stay' campaign, has been shot. Witnesses are claiming the gunman shouted 'Britain First'

I am a supporter of demcracy but recently I just started to think that it might not the best option to solve the huge problems this planet will face in the future. All other options didnt work out so far either. Power is corrupting.

I think its not only the people who aren't informed 100%. I also think that most of the politicians dont really have a clue about all the decisions they face.

If people aren't smart enough to be able to govern themselves, how can anyone be smart enough to govern others?

awful news, its gonna hurt the leave campaign

All campaigning suspended for the day. Jo Cox is critical.

Doubt that, a large number of leave voters are simply dissatisfied. This won't change that.

Confirmed that she died

God how awful.

Info on the attacker: History of mental health problems


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Oakwel...s.-a0227735906

http://www.batleynews.co.uk/news/loc...site-1-2976712

Amazing how quick the good people of the remain have tried to conflate this with The leave campaign. This rabid left phenomenon is sliding above Americas far right bible thumpers in my power rankings of scummy, ignorant immoral fools.

Truly an awful day

now anti EU bigots are killing elected officials. WOW

The murderer was yelling 'Britain First!' The name of a far-right nationalist party. The referendum is imminent. Jo Cox, the local MP, was a Remain (i.e. sane) campaigner.

well yes vast majority of right wingers are mentally ill

Assuming that's him, he looks a lot like Travis Bickle in that photo.

That post followed by this one was telling;
Terrible news, whether he's a right wing Christian or simply a crazy guy, still terrible.

Those are merely rumors, it has both been denied and confirmed by eye witnesses (one eye witness iirc actually) and the police isn't speaking up about it. The other scenario that seems to be another rumor is that two guys were fighting and she interfered, getting shot in the progress. At this point its unknown whether someone actually said britain first or that she actually interfered in a fight

No, only one person got shot and stabbed. Only one person was the object of the attack. And reporting is being restricted because it's Britain and reporters aren't going to prejudice any possible trial.

This does not change anything I've said and I have no clue why you'd think more people would have got shot or stabbed (well I do but it just isn't very sound reasoning from your part).