How else are we going to get self-driving tubes?

Mmmm, debatable. The people who probably got hit the worst were pensioners with small-medium savings that they were relying on to supplement their pensions. You need a ****ing huge savings pot with interest rates at ~1% for risk averse savers.

Unaccountably a lot of these voted Tory at the last GE. It's almost like the postwar generation actually like to suffer, and that borrowing is such an anathema to them that they're prepared to endure years of crap returns and capital erosion because Labour 'can't be trusted with the economy'.

Low interest rates are nothing to do with austerity, and who ever was in power interest rates are set by the BOE and are likely to have been just as low under Labour.

It's why we see quite a lot of ambivalence from many on the left who aren't being remotely anti-immigration. They believe in democratic accountability and aren't at all convinced the EU is democratically accountable. There's no reason to even think the EU will remain generally left of the UK.

The 'they know what's good for us' argument is truly awful and the rest needs to be addressed via more PU - the last thing most of the leave camp want of course.

Grunching a bit but you do know we have had driverless tubes for decades?

The Victoria line has been driverless for decades.

I was mostly referring to more basic stuff that I've seen mentioned, such as gender-based equal pay, said bill being passed while we still held the World Cup. Accept that it's not a binary thing and there's been stuff brought in since then, but you really can't say that all developments will be eliminated and that we wouldn't have brought in some of the things the EU has anyway

True that. Tony Benn, on the European Commission I believe

Not really, by my definition of driverless at least, from the Wiki...

Paying someone £50k pa to just open and close the doors and in case of emergency seems almost worse than actually paying him to drive the ****ing thing.

Thank god the British still have sense, hopefully the dutch and portugal follow suit in short order

Its practically impossible for the Dutch to exit the EU if that's what you're going for.

In other news, Donald Tusk came up with this little gem;

More doomsdaying.

Genuinely thought Tusk's quote was one of the stayers ITT.

why's this, they are clamouring for a referendum atm are they not

also I interpret Tusk's statement as the downfall of the EU which would be amazing, doesn't seem like doomsaying

it's 61/39 remain/out on betfair now and even that feels a tad too optimistic for the remainers

SMART MONEY ON LEAVE OR WHAT?

I'm a fan of having staff on trains and at stations. I dimly recall from long ago that people objected to the Victoria Line trains having no-staff on board but in any case they sure aren't driving it.

Back in the days of regular tube drivers strikes (late 80's I think) the Victoria Line still ran.

Sun comes out for leave

The tabloids have always been in favour of leaving - it's part of their anti-foreigner stance.

You could oppose the Sun and Mail on every issue and only be occasionally wrong.

yeah if this happens then the english newspapers, especially the tabloids, deserve a lot of the credit for their lying, sensationalism and fearmongering about both the eu and immigration.

Like that was ever hanging in the balance?

If the Sun says it's a good idea, it probably isn't.

There is only one party in Holland that really wants to leave the EU. If they decide to form a government after the next elections then they might be able to get a referendum. However they won't be able to make it a binding referendum so the result will be irrelevant except for talking points for the next election.

Also most economist agree that it would be a disaster for Holland to leave so I expect that after both sides campaign the stay campaign will win a referendum. It is not like Britain where there is much more doubt about the actual consequences of leaving.

Well if this doesn't happen then the english newspapers, (EU) politicians and public figures, deserve a lot of the credit for their lying, sensationalism and fearmongering about both the eu and the economic effects.

That is actually just as accurate as your post, pretending this stuff only works one way is laughably naïve. Both sides will play the fear card and both sides will draw conclusions that support their own goal (and both sides will be actively trying to deceive voters).

Wrt the Dutch referendum, its unlikely/impossible to ever happen unless;
The PVV gets a single party majority within the government
The EU ****s things up even more

The referendum law only lets people request a referendum based on new laws and the government is unlikely to request one unless see above.

Only about 2 English papers are IN.

Also at least the so called IN fear is based on something rational, e.g. there will be negative short/mid term economic consequences and highly likely long term consequences.

OUT fear is all based on belly feels and irrational symbolism.

The amount of people who I have spoken to who are utterly adamant about OUT but have basically nothing to support that opinion apart from rule Britannia.

you're way too touchy. i never said that there wasnt fearmongering, mostly from politicians, about how big the negative economic consequences from brexit will be. there definitely is.

but it's also silly to pretend it's all the same and symmetric. there's been decades of manipulative, dishonest anti-eu coverage and nothing similar pro-eu.

it's natural enough because it's what a lot of (angry) people want to hear, so it sells papers. and nobody cares about too positive stories about technocratic eu stuff (or about immigrants doing alright) so there's no market for it. but natural or not that still amounts to a systemic anti-eu bias.

What is symbolic about possibly regaining control over your own borders ?

Edit;
First time I'm seeing a lean towards leave here btw (haven't been following since the beginning);
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Leave now 11/8, this feels like the Leicester City cash out thing

as an aside, the poll coinciding with the release of the independence day sequel is incredible