What exactly is your problem with the status quo, can you give examples for EU laws that you don't like in particular? Other than free movement of workers.

There are quite some things I think could be done differently, things like the democratic process in Brussels, the treaties with non EU members, the process for allowing non EU members to become EU members, the financial aid to EU members, the financial aid to certain industries within the EU, more specifically; laws wrt the automotive industry, laws wrt the telecom industries, the extreme want for expansion and globalization within the EU, the meddling in national matters, there's quite some things wrong with the EU but obviously there are also perks about the EU.

If you'd ask me the EU has lost its balance between providing in a safe and stable economic union and trying to be more of a political union. I'm all for economic arrangements but I'd rather leave politics out of it, now obvious a strict segregation of the two is impossible but that's exactly why I feel like it has lost its balance.

Edit;
FWIW, I'm pro Europe, I just think there could be some positive sides to a Brexit for us. I wish those positive sides could exist with a 51% remain for the UK but the EU is way too arrogant to accept that fact imo.

So despite being pro-EU you want Britain to leave the EU because it might be beneficial to your country?

It might actually be beneficial to the EU as a whole if they would leave. Again, I'd rather have them not leave while still taking away valuable lessons from the whole referendum but I don't think that's going to happen.

Being pro-EU could very well mean that I think very different things about the EU then other pro-EU people, there isn't just one EU.

The EURO zone will have to form a closer political union long term or break apart. But the UK is clearly not taking part in that and it would be perfectly positioned to define how the "outer circle" of non-EURO countries will fit into the EU picture in the future.

Fwiw, if I were an UK citizen I'd probably be quite worried about losing the worker/privacy/data protection rights currently guaranteed by the EU. I think the UK may be heading towards US standards in a brexit scenario, which really isn't a good thing imo.

Actually, I think that the attempts at forming a closer political union will be much more likely to actually break it apart. One simple reason is because the expansion is incompatible with forming a powerful political union. Going back to the basics of economic collaboration with the minimum of needed politics seems like a much more maintainable concept. This is kind of off topic though and probably belongs in a more general EU topic.

Also, there will be a huge need to punish the UK economically so I don't think they should be an example for other non EU countries.

Sorry, I may not have been clear.

I was talking about the case where UK stays in the EU but outside the EURO. It would be defining the status of these non-EURO EU countries in the future, when the EURO area will have to move closer together politically. My point was that the UK will likely have plenty of opportunities to shape its future in the EU if it chooses to stay, which is something that you seem to disagree with.

Actually, I read your post wrong and your earlier/this post was right. When the UK leave they obviously still should be punished but that wasn't what you were on about.

Our total EU exports are £133bn, while our imports from Germany alone are £60bn.

Any EU rules imposed on our exports will be reciprocated on imports. I just don't believe Germany, or more specifically Germany businesses, will just shrug their shoulders and accept it just so the EU can prove a political point.

Its much more like this. Everyone will take a hit at some point, its undeniable, however the other countries will be much more likely to recover in the short term.

It all depends how many of the exports/imports the different countries can do without or can buy/sell somewhere else. The advantage is always with the bigger market in this case. There is also the position of London as the financial center of Europe. Right now Britain protects London from EU regulations that would hurt it, they won't be able to do that anymore once they are out.

With all due respect, this is where you're going wrong.

It's not proving a political point: it's about the success or failure of the long term joint venture between Germany and France to form a close economic and political alliance, that was begun 60+ years ago and that spans several generations of politicians. It's also about Germany being able to export cheaply via the Euro.

No pro-EU politician in either of those countries would ever want to be remembered as the person who oversaw the avoidable collapse of the EU, and Germany would much prefer to take a financial hit on the chin wrt tariffs when exporting to the UK (much as it has with the bailouts to Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland and Cyprus).

How much more expensive do you think German exports would be if the EU collapsed, the Euro was abandoned and Germany returned to the Deutschmark?

Meh, we're getting spied on if we are in or out, and idk what workers rights you refer to, most of what remain claims will disappear was enacted into UK law before we joined the EEC in the first place

Re. workers rights like paternity leave, minimum vacation, etc: These may be UK law now, but the UK will be free to participate in a race to the bottom once they are out of the EU.

Have you got any source that points towards this happening ? It seems very unlikely and just doomsdaying away tbh.

Well the government in the UK negotiated exceptions on the working hours directives in order to facilitate certain people working more than their euro counterparts.

I'm not nearly informed enough on the UK situation to tell if stuff like this is just doomsdaying:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ndum-warns-tuc

My understanding is that the implementation of EU minimum standards has strengthened labor rights in the UK considerably over the last decades. Once out, there will be pressure to roll some of these changes back whenever the next crisis hits.

... which probably won't be long once we're out (we aren't even over the current crisis yet).

You can see the way this is going, and it's not going to be pretty. The far Right will be eagerly anticipating a Boris-type government rolling back the few concessions that workers have been given over the last few decades, a la Thatcher.

Value of exports of goods and services to the EU about 229bn, maybe you are just looking at goods.

https://fullfact.org/europe/do-half-...rts-go-europe/

Germany exports about 1.4T a year.

So in direct comparison to Germany we are talking about something that effect ~45% of our exports and nothing close to that much of theirs.

This is simply not true.

They might have existed but that does nothing to describe the potency of the law. 1 hour of paternity leave is not the same as 1 month. (not saying those were the thresholds just giving hypothetical example)

So despite acknowledging that the UK enacted most of these laws and despite the fact that our own laws are much better and more progressive to workers.. you speculate there will be a race to the bottom if we leave

Next you will be telling us the EU created and funds the NHS as a show of love to the UK people.

Do you think we are swapping one tyranny for another? No government will ever get away with racing to the bottom as long as we have a say

You're argument is democracy is bad because you might choose unwisely

This says a lot about the current situation and not so much about the future one.
If the UK will truly face a crisis it seems obvious that labor will become somewhat cheaper, the question is whether it will be as rigorous as proposed. I don't see that happening tbh.

@S.K.
My argument is that it is a good thing when a bunch of countries agree on enforcing minimum standards instead of attempting to undercut each other.

There's a conservative government why wouldn't they try to reduce the protections afforded workers, there's some form like.

Workers rights are not a binary question of yes no, the out camp keeps trying to foster these false dichotomies.

Workers rights are often linear, how much holiday, how many hours etc etc etc.

Workers right have been highly increased and protected by the EU.

A race to the bottom is a highly likely hypothesis on Brexit as this the means by the UK economy attracts the investment denied it by not being able to grant access to the EU single market.

As for having a say, lol, one of the most naive things I have evaar read.

Yea years of austerity mostly impacting the working class really hurt the tories.