If your going to to try and argue that leaving does not remove leaving as an issue, a statement that seems a truism, you are going to have to do much more work than this.

Of course. That, as you know, is something I totally agree with.

I'm not perhaps as surprised as others seem to be at how agitated leavers are at the attempts to remain. Nor how unmoved they are at remainers banging on about how stupid and ignorant they are (plus racist of course)

Obviously we depart further from there. I totally disagree with the calling them stupid racists approach to healing. I'm in the politics camp where we listen and try to resolve the genuine underlying grievances.

Well yes, just as you refused to call wil, juan, bundy etc racists. Look where that got you.

The point of building a straw man is that you're not supposed to be inside it when it's ignited.

I don't think even you really think you're going to resolve brexit/etc by calling people names. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd rather be wrong by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

There's only one way forward whether we leave or not. Or we can go backwards - you have the USA model of where we could descend to next. Not for me thanks, not while we have any chance of avoiding it.

It's never been about "calling people names". That's just one of your "rhetorical games", and a way of insulting and denigrating the hard work some of us put in trying to show and persuade people in real life that if their attitudes take hold they will lead to the eventual destruction of everything they cherish.

Racists are almost always very selfish by nature and talking about altruism and generosity is pointless with them, so the "only way forward" is to appeal to their selfish instincts by pointing out to them that it's not actually in their best interests to further a racist agenda. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending they aren't what they are is the worst possible "strategy", if you can call it that. Again, look where that led to with P7, your microcosm of the wider racist world.

You call them names in part so that you can conflate and lump them all in as 'selfish by nature and talking about altruism and generosity is pointless with them'.

Sorry, I'm not with you on that simplistic nonsense and dehumanisation.

(That doesn't mean I didn't notice your strawman about altruism and generosity. I'm all for explaining why immigration is a good thing. Why the EU is a good thing etc etc.)

I think the whole forum knows you have a soft spot for racists, chez.

I have a soft spot for just about everyone Jalfrezi. Including you

I dont mind everybody knowing it. I'm not going to apologise for not hating anybody

Again you're making things up.

It's not about hating people but about realising how to get through to them. Just listening isn't nearly enough on its own. You have to point out the contradictions and lack of scientific evidence for what they believe and give them real world counter factual examples that they can relate to. Even then it's bloody hard work.

I've never suggested listening is enough on it's own and yes of course I'm for understanding and pointing out the contradiction and evidence - even when it doesn't support how I'd like things to be.

It is extremely hard work. Only made harder when it's descended into name calling and polarised attack/defense rather than engagement.

Lol Jalfrezi basically thinks all leavers are stupid and racists, but he definitely does not name call or stereotype in any way when he points out their stupid racist ways.

However, I like the fact he and those like him call all leavers stupid racists.

Please keep this up. It's excellent work.

When your spiritual leaders are Boris Johnson and Tommy Robinson... it’s easy to see why some people draw such conclusions.

Incidentally this isn’t a win hearts and minds game, it’s a ride out the clock game until the idea of self-immolation becomes too toxic to the non racist element of the movement. As time goes on and more Brexit propaganda is proven to be nonsense, this is happening.

Let’s just get on with the people’s vote.

There is an element of becoming too toxic to associate with. I'd never in a million years vote for or support ukip and Robinson or any party that was far right, for example.

But Brexit party, I'm very ok with that for the EU elections. Not for GE tho. I'd vote tories if Boris if he were in charge, otherwise Green as manifestos generally stand. Or labour if that old fart wasn't in charge, and the likes of Abbot, Thornberry, Long-Bailey, Gardiner drove off a cliff, especially if Lammy was in the driving seat. (However, if they had someone decent in charge, those people would never be in the cabinet in a million years)

Would you like to give an example of how to support your claims with scientific evidence?

Seriously?

I said lack of scientific evidence for their beliefs. Try harder.

If you're insisting on me name calling I'd say stupid or racist.

I've got an example for you:

and to be clear, when I point out jalfrezi's approach, I mean he calls leavers "stupid and/or racist" even if I sometimes say 'stupid racists' (in a captain Mannering accent)

So the out-group should support their views with scientific evidence, but your views should be taken at face value?

Seriously...

When someone implies that a group of people are inferior in some way because of their genetic makeup, they need to back it up with scientific evidence, yes.

This is somewhat different to saying that a group of people sharing one particular strong view are also likely to share other views, which is an observation not a scientific hypothesis.

^ This is not the same as this:

Either way you are implying that it's okay for one group to base their views on casual observation, but not the other.

The point of the Captain Mainwaring character is that he was supposed not to have an accent, being a typical petit bourgeoisie bank manager.

The first part of your post is mostly right.

Yeah accent isn't the right word. Couldn't think of the right one.

hopefully you get the idea.

Inflection

As you can see I'm not, because only one group is implying that (genetic) science supports their observations.

This is just another way of jalfrezi calling leavers racists. More conventional meaning of racist this time which is something I suppose.

'implies' is doing one hell of a lot of heavy lifting. It's an example from the conjugation of the past perfect imaginary class of verbs

I was grasping for 'intonation'. Still not quite sure.