I agree with I think, part of your point, that the EU has far more to lose from the blame game than anybody else. but the EU has genuinely minimal interest in playing the 'blame game or trying to punish the UK. The reason they have behaved reasonably is because they are reasonable.

Any request for an extension will also be treated reasonably. That means they will want it to make sense and serve some purpose.

A formal veto (if you mean by the EU) is very unlikely. More likely is that there will be an 'extension agreement' and the commons will get a 4th go at May's agreement in the light of the 'extension agreement'.

They'll vote multiple times on the deal but only allow one for Brexit.

Hypocrisy and conservatives go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Where do you get this 50 billion figure from? I thought it was over 70 billion.

No idea, I read it somewhere. It could be north of that, sure.

I dont think an overall position of being reasonable and also cynically going along with that to avoid blame is mutually exclusive.

I dont pretend to know the internal politics of the 27 and the various strings they pull on the EU itself. But I doubt everyone involved in this united front are doing so for the same reasons just by human nature.

You are referring to a process in which stakeholders shouted out numbers they would like to be paid, as though one of those numbers was somehow the 'real' figure!

Indeed. What was Farage's quote about a 52:48 result again?

For the record...

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

At last a wee bit of good news.

Pro-Brexit Wetherspoon boss Tim Martin attacks Remainers after pub chain's profits plummet

Wow, Tory Boy grew up!

Nick Boles: Tory MP quits local party over Brexit

Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn indicates he could vote Leave in a new referendum on Britain’s EU membership

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8826776.html

Brexit: No new vote on May's deal without DUP support - chancellor
Another bung on the way

As a dumb American who is barely following Brexit it seems like they are a guy who proposed because he felt like it was the next logical relationship stage, but is just going through motions and really doesn’t want to get married so he is being very passive aggressive and pushing the wedding further and further out.

What’s the probability of politicians just saying, “Yeah, we ****ed up that referendum. We’ll stay, sorry.” Is it possible or are they legally forced to follow the referendum?

The referendum was 'advisory', i.e not legally binding.

The chances of them saying we "****ed up and are staying" period is close to zero. It would rightly be seen as an attack on democracy. Brexit could get reversed after and probably only after another referendum. For various reasons it is not clear how likely that is, for example what would the second referendum question be? May's deal v. remain? Leavers who consider May's deal tepid at best would consider this a stitch up. So: May's deal v. Hard Brexit? May's deal v. remain v. Hard Brexit in a ranked choice ballot? And how could May even advocate her deal v. remain when she voted remain in the referendum? And so on.

Politicians don't admit they ****ed up so quickly. How many high profile Brexiters have said "actually I made a mistake"? How many high profile Leavers have said "actually May's deal surpasses remaining"? In both cases the answer is very close to zero. (there are someexceptions).

Politicians might admit they ****ed up in a few years time but there's not going to be some big mea culpa in the next twelve days.

And by that time another vote swinging number of bitter old white dudes will have died.

if the second referendum isn't clarification of how to pursue the result of the first ref (ie which way shall we leave), then it shouldn't be held until the first referendum is delivered. That seems fair.

Why does May keep trying to get her deal through? Seems undemocratic to those MPs who voted it down twice. Gotta respect the will of the voters and all that.

It's the MPs seeking to remain by hook or by crook that are not respecting the will of the voters

“fair” here meaning something you just made up because it suits you.

which is fine because that’s really all any argument ever is. people don’t have principles or anything like it. just outcomes to like and outcomes not to like

Do you consider a referendum result not being delivered as 'unfair'?

I do.

The question on the referendum was "Should the UK remain in the EU or leave the EU?"

The public voted to indicate their belief that we should leave. The government has respected the will of the people by invoking Article 50 and negotiating a deal to leave the EU, but the deal has failed (twice and counting) to get through parliament for a combination of reasons: some don't believe it sufficiently severs ties with the EU and others argue it surrenders too much . The vast majority of MPs agree that one way or another it's a terrible deal for the UK.

So you have a mandate from the UK voters to leave the EU, but nothing even close to a consensus among MPs on how to do it. The logical answer is to either revoke or suspend A50, present the exact terms of the UK's exit from the EU to the electorate and either leave or stay based on the result. Of course the whole idea of presenting a complex social, political and economic contract to the general public and expecting a considered response is utterly stupid, but we have Cameron to thank for that.

it’s not “unfair” for the voters to change their mind when they learn more about something. you’re not owed anything

but the entire thing is pointless. you only hold the position you do because it advances the outcome you want to see. and likewise on the other side. nobody actually has any principles about stuff like this

'fairness' is not some absolute that fully determines what we decide to do.

There would be a degree of unfairness in not delivering on the referendum - fair minded people recognise that. Exactly how unfair, and whether that sufficient to overwhelm other considerations, is a matter for individual judgement.