Brexit Referendum - Page 397 - Politics and Economics

Rooney easily the best player ever to play for England when he was young. Yes, better than Gascoigne.

Mentioning a player who won over 50 caps and failed to make an impression is lol. Out of his depth at international level.

07-12-2018 , 01:34 AM

#9902

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Most creative and best are two totally different things.

No English player had Hoddle's range of pass and vision - he should have earned at least 100 caps, but then Robson and Wilkins could run a lot, so they played more.

07-12-2018 , 01:36 AM

#9903

jalfrezi

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By that token Glenda would be better than Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi.

Lol

Creativity is ranked higher than the skills you mention because it can't be learned through practice very much.

07-12-2018 , 01:51 AM

#9904

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Creativity is ranked higher than the skills you mention because it can't be learned through practice very much.

Lol. Are you really suggesting the Spanish, Argentinians, Portuguese or Brazilians are genetically better at creativity in football than people born in England?

or is it perhaps because the way they learn is different?

07-12-2018 , 02:11 AM

#9905

jalfrezi

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Nothing to do with genetics, obviously.

Those countries place an emphasis on technical ability and creativity at a young age, so kids with those skills progress through the junior ranks even though they may be shorter and weaker than their English equivalents (where the emphasis is more on strength, tackling and passing).

This is why England's youth teams have for some time had more success than the national teams - the English system favours early developers.

This should be quite uncontroversial to anyone who's read about the reasons for English footballing failure.

07-12-2018 , 02:14 AM

#9906

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Those countries place an emphasis on technical ability and creativity at a young age, so kids with those skills progress through the junior ranks even though they may be shorter and weaker than their English equivalents (where the emphasis is more on strength, tackling and passing).

So it's learned through practice then. Glad we cleared that up.

07-12-2018 , 02:20 AM

#9907

jalfrezi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

So it's learned through practice then. Glad we cleared that up.

No, it's based on selection of those who show at a young age a gift for technical ability which includes creativity. Fewer of those kids would make it through the ranks in England.

But then someone who labels Robson as someone who ran around a lot when his main strength was in risk-taking (often to his own physical detriment), and implies that Hoddle was one of the greatest players of all time is possibly arguing in bad faith here.

Last edited by jalfrezi; 07-12-2018 at 02:26 AM.

07-12-2018 , 03:18 AM

#9908

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,849

England wasting talent and a grossly incompetent FA is another issue.

but if you honestly think Rooney was better than Gazza then there's not much else to be said. Gazza was better even after he broke his leg, before the leg break it's a joke comparison.

07-12-2018 , 04:11 AM

#9909

DrRobotnit

banned

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 217

Best English player was Le Tissier. Didn't play for top side so rarely got picked. Hoddle hates the disabled (or something). Rooney overpaid spoilt brat/chip on shoulder/caves under pressure.

07-12-2018 , 05:03 AM

#9910

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

No, it's based on selection of those who show at a young age a gift for technical ability which includes creativity. Fewer of those kids would make it through the ranks in England.

Because we don't know how to teach creativity. And no wonder, when some people still assume it's a God-given ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

But then someone who labels Robson as someone who ran around a lot when his main strength was in risk-taking (often to his own physical detriment), and implies that Hoddle was one of the greatest players of all time is possibly arguing in bad faith here.

I already said most creative and best are two totally different things.

07-12-2018 , 05:06 AM

#9911

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

but if you honestly think Rooney was better than Gazza then there's not much else to be said. Gazza was better even after he broke his leg, before the leg break it's a joke comparison.

07-12-2018 , 05:28 AM

#9912

BOIDS

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this convo belongs in the mid 2000s

current crop of english teenagers have grown up the abramovich/abu dhabi academies which cost hundreds of mils and are stacked with the best coaches and equipment itw. the emphasis on running around a lot and pushing people over is v much finished

as a result we're the current holders of both the u17 world cup and the u20 world cup. both won in 2017, both our first victory in the competition(s) ever

i didn't watch the u20 one, but in the u17 final we made spain's kids look like a pub side. they couldn't get the ball off us

basically what i'm saying is that it's coming home

07-12-2018 , 05:29 AM

#9913

joejoe1337

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Some interesting YouGov numbers out today:

Difficult to see how May survives this.

07-12-2018 , 06:13 AM

#9914

Hoopie1

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Labour can't produce a meaningful lead against a party where the majority think the leader should stand down. Stunning.

07-12-2018 , 06:49 AM

#9915

jalfrezi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

I said young Rooney was the most talented English footballer ever, not the Rooney who Utd over-trained to play percentage balls instead of allowing him the freedom to express himself audaciously as before, or the Rooney who became more interested in hanging out with the celebs of the time.

The young Rooney who people who had seen Pele play compared them and some (eg Johnny Giles) expected Rooney to even surpass him (that didn't happen of course).

I think your memory is failing you here, tinged with some typically over-exuberant Tossinghamisms.

07-12-2018 , 06:53 AM

#9916

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,849

Graham Rix was quite good when he wasn't fiddling with kids.

07-12-2018 , 06:54 AM

#9917

jalfrezi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

Because we don't know how to teach creativity. And no wonder, when some people still assume it's a God-given ability.

Clearly not everyone has equal talent as a child. Or are you going to disagree with this too?

Hopefully you'll just stop the nonsense and most can get back to laughing at Brexiters tripping over their own shoelaces.

(though lol @ Hod GOAT)

07-12-2018 , 06:56 AM

#9918

jalfrezi

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Graham Rix was quite good when he wasn't fiddling with kids.

Never mind, according to Hod's version of God he will come back as a disabled person in his next life (because they are all bastards who deserve it).

07-12-2018 , 07:06 AM

#9919

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,798

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Clearly not everyone has equal talent as a child. Or are you going to disagree with this too?

So are you for or against grammar schools?

07-12-2018 , 07:09 AM

#9920

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 46,849

brushing over the lack of mention of rooney. This has a nice selection of hoddle and that goal from Frank Worthington that can be watched forever.

http://www.just-football.com/2015/07...ne-cunningham/

07-12-2018 , 09:13 AM

#9921

joejoe1337

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopie1

Labour can't produce a meaningful lead against a party where the majority think the leader should stand down. Stunning.

It's not a good state of affairs for them I agree, but there were polls last week that had them five points behind.

07-12-2018 , 09:19 AM

#9922

BOIDS

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Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 13,798

longer term outlook,

something i took from the yank election is that polls taken in the immediate aftermath of a mini-crisis for one party or another dont seem to be indicative of much. the 12 point lead for clinton in the aftermath of grab pussy gate turned out to be bc, for a short time, enthused dems were more likely to answer polls than depressed repubs

--

if they take the 'should she stand down' poll again in two weeks when everything has calmed down a bit, i reckon it'll be a substantially more may-friendly result

07-12-2018 , 09:23 AM

#9923

joejoe1337

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You are completely right, one shouldn't look at one poll rather than an aggregation and that they can overreact to specific events. However, there might not be a "two weeks later" option if the white paper gets absolutely destroyed by the Brexit tories.

07-12-2018 , 09:44 AM

#9924

davmcg

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,535

Quote:

Originally Posted by joejoe1337

Some interesting YouGov numbers out today:

But the full details of the deal hadn't been released. Those answering this poll could only have been reacting to resignations, partisan comments, press reports etc.

07-12-2018 , 09:50 AM

#9925

joejoe1337

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Quote:

Originally Posted by davmcg

But the full details of the deal hadn't been released. Those answering this poll could only have been reacting to resignations, partisan comments, press reports etc.

Yeah but what's your point? The respondents are making a choice based on poor information? Do you think that the general public are waiting to dip into a 100 page report?

If the public think she's made a bad deal, it doesn't really matter whether that's true or not.

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