youre not even getting your trade deal with new zealand (until the eu does in a couple of years) http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKBN1942WH

what a waste this entire thing is

Oh God, if we get nothing else we need the ability to do trade deals independent of EU. If we don't, we are strapped tight to the EU until federalisation or failure.

Some politicians are right *****.

Your biggest trade deal will be with the EU.

You're strapped onto EU with or without EU membership.

Ability to negotiate independently of the EU is a fantasy. UK's biggest feature on the international is its gateway (especially financial) access to the much bigger EU market.

You don't need a trade deal to trade with a country.

We used to pay more to the EU than the tariffs we avoided.

A side effect of that is that local businesses were subsidising exporters (by paying a general tax that paid for the EU) - I doubt anyone would want that.

More here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...d-no-hardship/

Maybe we can explain this to Facebook millennials in mobile phone terms. The monthly contract cost is higher than you would spend on PAYG, and we are tied in to an oppressive T&C with brand exclusivity requirements and a two year notice period - who would ever (continue to) agree to that?

I know, but ability to set up independent deals is the best we can do to mitigate against bad EU economies/decisions.

We can't compeletely avoid that, but spreading the risk a bit helps some.

UK's status as an English speaking financial center gateway to the EU market was one of the reasons rest of the world bothered working with UK at all.

The talks surrounding tariffs and money saved are red herrings. The real problems are in the non-tariff barriers. Something as simple as requiring customs inspection renders UK, essentially, ineligible for EU's JIT inventories. Since it's easier to move UK factories to Europe than to move European factories to UK, it's a pretty safe bet long term manufacturers, including even UK manufacturers, will just move to Europe and then export to the UK.

This is the path of least resistance that Brexiters have managed to carve out. Congratulations on digging your own graves.

alright mate

the eu has close to the same trade deals as an independent uk would have, so in reality it probably doesnt change much (other than making trade in europe easier) but it does show how hopeless this all is.

the non-tariff barriers are still more important than just the tariffs. i feel like we've been here before.

Why do you want to make independent trade deals? Why is that so important? Where does the value of independent trade deals come from?

It seems that most countries are actually forming blocks to increase their negotiation power when making them or free trade areas (NAFTA, EFTA etc.).

Edit: I think I asked the same question before.

To loosen the ties. Not neceassarily cut them, but not be so utterly beholden to the EU, so that we can escape more easily if it lurches towards failure or federalisation.

We have to deal with Europe anyway. We were in a much stronger position to deal with them when we had a privileged position on the board of directors and could bugger them about at will, per Sir Humphrey.

We are giving up that position.

And that's all escaped your notice, has it?

eh the constant push to move from veto to majority was eroding that place. Time to change tack and enable us to make deals directly imo.


At this point, I'd rather be part of the EU where we could make deals but not be on the board, such as Norway, than the other way around, tbh. Spend next 5-10 years building up deals and put up with the EU bull****, then leave the EU more fully once we're better placed to not have to put up with them.

I see a seat at the top table as a distraction to global trading alliances that will be more and more important in the future - especially important before the EU collapses or federalises - its clear ultimate fate one way or the other.

For example you can import things at the prices and from the places that suit you, rather than having to go along with protecting/favouring suppliers in another part of the trade block.

The remain campaign didn't seem to be worried about those at the time, I guess they have only become end-of-the-world important as the economic and tariff arguments have started to fall away.

Non tariff barriers don't have to be a problem. We trade OK with the US.

If the EU makes them a problem for outsiders, then they are the insular protectionist clique that we don't want to be in. And we will have ROW opportunities by getting out and dropping those.

So if non-tariff barriers are a problem for international trade then we should leave, if they are not a problem then it is nothing to worry about.

Re. 'being at the table', general consensus is that is is better to be at the table where regulations are made, i.e. WTO etc, rather than not there but be a minority at a sub table that just generates the bureaucracy and protectionism around those regulations.

I highly doubt you understand what the non tariff barriers mean. For all EU member states there are the same regulations. So instead of dealing with the regulations of each member state you have to comply with only one. You probably can imagine that businesses aren't eager to deal with 27 different regulations. So its just ridiculous to say we are dealing with the US just fine. You have to deal with only one set of regulations.
You also seem to dismiss the fact that the EU is closer to the UK than the ROW so everything has lower transportation costs.
Of course you will find goods that are cheaper on the world market. But what are you sacrificing for that. The Chinese would love to make a deal with you but they will also flood your market and probably kill more of your jobs because you cant compete. Please name some goods where you would be better off by dealing with ROW rather than the EU.

Dealing with ROW means also often worse labour conditions in other manufactoring countries, having to transport the whole stuff around the world with impacts on the Environment.

I always said to save this planet it has to be together. We just get a glimpse what it means to only think about yourself when we are watching the US government dismantling regulations and stuff to help businesses(or should I say the rich) and not caring about environment, civil rights and so on. But it seems that most Brexiteers have no problem with all that because some dreams of "Make the UK great again".

Davis saying nothing and taking a long time saying it at the BREXIT press conference. Seems the timetable is exactly the one the EU said it would be.

Citizens Rights and Financial Settlement to be discussed first.

once this was decided the rest is just boring details. only the irish will care (which is why they got to decide the eu position)


https://twitter.com/tom_nuttall/stat...45967429033989

it still seems utterly idiotic though. there'll be nothing gained and plenty lost by all this.

Davis is an idiot who likes to portray himself as a man of principle.

The real issue was always about when 'significant progress' was deemed to have been made allowing the rest of the talks to start.

I was half expecting DD to walk out over that issue but it's a lot less likely post the election.

Peston's take

So the Brexit negotiations seem to started well - caved on everything on day 1.

Any Brexiteers care to give us their valuable opinions? Diebitter?

Dgaf, we're getting rid of the immigrants and bringing our sovereignty back!

Hammond says UK should stick with EU customs union rules for a time after brexit.

None of these ****s know what it is they want from brexit except no more immigrants and sovereignty back.

Also no more austerity. I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm fine with Hammonds idea as a, say, 5 year interim measure, as long as we are able to forge trade deals independent of the EU.

It's a case of swallow lost sovreignity for another 5 years so we can thrn properly leave the EU with significantly less disruption.

Loss of accountable democracy for 5 years is better than loss of accountable democracy forevermore. At least we know the EUs sneaking tenure over the UK is ending.

It's a tricky one though - its a case of which is the best thing long term for dealing with this EU wound, remove the bandages from the wound very slowly, or rip that plaster off ASAP and let the air get to it.