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Old 10-11-2018, 07:56 PM   #8651
fuluck414
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by jman220 View Post
Nonviolence does not equal “not in your face.” Have you ever even read just a little bit about what MLK JR’s protests actually were?
Obviously rara would have been incensed at the cops getting violent during mlk's non-violent protest in Selma.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:59 PM   #8652
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by WichitaDM View Post
"Taxes are abhorrent" is telling on yourself.
Telling on myself as what, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Shame Trolly !!!1! View Post
No, not even close. In the case of a large group of peeps and changing their minds by chatting on the interwebs, let's see if we can agree on some stuff...

1) No matter what you as an individual do, that large group of peeps are necessarily going to hear messages that try to coddle, messages that try to shame, messages that try to logic (so to speak), crazy messages, and other messages.

2) Your only choice as an individual chatting on the interwebs here is simply which chorus you are going to chime in with.
I absolutely disagree with this. Even a group aligned by similar goals/values is made up of many individual voices with great variation of beliefs. Single individuals can make a large impact beyond making the chorus sing slightly louder.

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IDK here what you mean by ""in your face" suppression tactics". What do you imagine is being suppressed, and by whom?
I was stealing phrasing other posters were using. I don't think trying to suppress the other side's voice by yelling louder than them is an effective path to change. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by FlyWf View Post
The **** you talking about, "we," son.

Also we are the many, you are the few. Your daddy's dealership vs. one slicey boi is a fight that you do not want to see, man, you need to understand the stakes here. The choices are not "yell at people in restaurants" vs. "dejectedly submit to America becoming the country from V for Vendetta with of John Hurt recast with Donald ****ing Trump". Door #2 is not civil submission to oppression, man, y'all might want to crack open a history book.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:26 PM   #8653
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Telling on myself as what, exactly?
A reactionary.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
People see through your bull**** because instead of being smarter than people, as you believe, you're actually quite dull.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:29 PM   #8654
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

By the way, just in case lurkers are unaware, that for all of chezlaw's bizarre tangent about rape here:

1) He agreed with libertarians when they advocated for legalized sexual harassment and got FURIOUS at people who called them misogynist. That was very "polarizing" to him!

2) In our various daterape threads he exclusively and entirely took the side of scolding liberals and leftists who got mad at rape apologists for "polarizing" the issue.

Nobody buys your ****, either, chezlaw. Go back to SMP and chat with your lol kiddie Nazi friends.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:36 PM   #8655
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

To add to Fly's post, I'm convinced the USA can't move forward without lime, mobs getting involved. Elites ecaped a reckoning after the civil war, civil rights and more recently the Iraq war/financial collapse. Until these people face any repercussions, what will propel change?
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:22 PM   #8656
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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A reactionary.
This term is synonymous with conservative, right? I'm curious what made you think I'm a conservative. I'm neither liberal nor conservative; there are more than two options.

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People see through your bull**** because instead of being smarter than people, as you believe, you're actually quite dull.
This is the type of discourse I'm advocating against. This doesn't shine well on you to an observer, and it certainly doesn't make me any more open to your viewpoints.

From another thread, this guy seems like the epitome of what I've been arguing for here:

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Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
Not saying that it's impossible. It's just really, really difficult. A perfect example of changing minds is Daryl Davis. He goes around converting white supremacists and getting them to embrace tolerance for others.

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Old 10-11-2018, 09:25 PM   #8657
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
This term is synonymous with conservative, right? I'm curious what made you think I'm a conservative. I'm neither liberal nor conservative; there are more than two options.

:

LOL
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:29 PM   #8658
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

Good bad faith arguing browni
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:33 PM   #8659
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

Browni, you're not very self aware.

When you say "this comes off badly for you" towards fly then the next three posts are people laughing at you, maybe time for some introspection?
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:08 PM   #8660
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by SuperUberBob View Post
Good bad faith arguing browni
Explain why you think I'm arguing in bad faith.

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Originally Posted by aoFrantic View Post
Browni, you're not very self aware.

When you say "this comes off badly for you" towards fly then the next three posts are people laughing at you, maybe time for some introspection?
Fly attacked my character without providing any basis by asserting I have some sort of superiority complex. I would not have even replied to him except that I thought it was a good example of the behavior I am advocating against.

I value and practice introspection. Alas, I'm missing why I'm being laughed at, so you're going to have help me out.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:11 PM   #8661
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

We've down this rodeo now literally 100 times. The joke just isnt funny anymore, much like modern day Morrissey.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:15 PM   #8662
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
... absolutely disagree with this. Even a group aligned by similar goals/values is made up of many individual voices with great variation of beliefs. Single individuals can make a large impact beyond making the chorus sing slightly louder...
Well, first of all, trying to individually one-on-one jawbone peeps into changing their beliefs is probably the least effective way of changing the world even possible. Basically lol at figuring out the best worst way. That wasn't really my point however.

As an example, let's say I wanna jawbone someone who believes there is nothing wrong with the current ALEC wave of voter ID laws. I *might* feel, in an example of a bilateral face-to-face chat, that I'll have more success with my target if I refrain from saying "Voter ID laws are racist". So, in this example, I'd just not say that.

OTOH, consider a multilateral, asynchronous, anonymous interwebs forum. In this case, given a certain critical mass of a participant group, it's pretty much certain that at least one other participant is going to post "Voter ID laws are racist". So... if I'm choosing tactics in this second example, the tactic of just not mentioning the alleged factoid that voter id are racist... that tactic doesn't even practically exist.

Got it?

Quote:
... I don't think trying to suppress the other side's voice by yelling louder than them is an effective path to change...
This goes back to what I was getting at before. In a bilateral face-to-face chat with someone you need/want to keep engaging with into the future... sure, perhaps yelling louder is less effective than some other unnamed tactics (which hasn't been demonstrated, and would depend on what those other candidate tactics actual were).

OTOH, here on an interwebs forum, it's literally impossible to yell over anyone (or yell at all).

Again: tactics that might be bad (or good) in one scenario ~ might not even be logically possible ~ in another scenario.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:13 PM   #8663
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

I'm 100% convinced the USA will have another civil war in the next 20 years.

You're my boys Blue!
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:23 PM   #8664
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

Morrissey still exists? Why would anybody still care?
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:57 PM   #8665
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

Kick 'em when they fall down

I've seen political successes happen in other people's lives, and now it's not happening in mine ahhh hooiiyy

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Old 10-12-2018, 01:26 AM   #8666
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Absolutely. Only in the U.S. are environmental issues opposed by the lunatic right. In just about every developed country it’s not even a right/left issue anymore, everyone knows, for example, global warming is real, the only arguments are over the best way to handle it. But not in the U.S.
plastic straws aren't banned in most cities around the world, so how can it be a centrist proposition to ban them?
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:34 AM   #8667
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

@shame trolly why do you think that the normal poster in a forum wants to change other people ideas? I think there are several reasons why people post in forums but changing other people idea is very low on the list for most posters.

For example when I fight with Italian racists on Twitter or Italian forums, I know it's almost impossible to have they change their mind. But I do it anyway for 3 reasons:

1) I want to know my enemy and the way they answer my arguments show me how they reason
2) I want to help fellow non-racists that could get the idea racism is dominant, if no people answer to racists wild claim.
3)i want to recheck my inner reasoning constantly and explicitating them forces me to check the internal logic of my positions again and confirm or dismiss my previous considerations.

I think many people become active posters for similar reasons, in politics.
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:02 AM   #8668
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

Imagine being just insanely triggered by the banning of straws.

Left: You put an accused rapist on the Supreme Court. We're outraged!

Right: LOL calm down liberals, you're so easily triggered.

....

Right: YOU BANNED PLASTIC STRAWS IN A CITY I'M NEVER VISITING??????????? HAVE YOU NO DECENCY??????????? THIS IS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:18 AM   #8669
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
I certainly dont want the Uk to move in the direction of usa politics.

and evn you must realise something is amiss when fly asserts I blame the left for not moving further right when in fact I blame the left for not moving further left and being more progressive.
You're not averse to a bit of polarisation after all.
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:23 AM   #8670
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

"Man, this discourse is toxic! Now HERE is exactly the kind of engagement I support."

[link to African American man trying to befriend white supremacists]
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:17 AM   #8671
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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You're not averse to a bit of polarisation after all.
Good policy is how we drive progress. The right will follow and the center will move leftwards. The spirit of 45 was a triumph, if gave us the NHS, welfare etc. That didn't polarise society, it moved the center to the left and changed society for the better for just about everyone.

Policy is where the political debate should be and the progressives/left needs to drive it with well thought out radical polcies, enagaing with the electorate, winning the argument/elections and actually changing things for the better. Not indulging in nonsense about coddling vs screaming, personal abuse/refusing to enagage with huge swathes of the electorate etc etc - the main beneficery of that are the extremists who dont care about making anyhtign better - they thrive best on the anger, fear, social division, economic failure etc
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:55 AM   #8672
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
Imagine being just insanely triggered by the banning of straws.

Left: You put an accused rapist on the Supreme Court. We're outraged!

Right: LOL calm down liberals, you're so easily triggered.

....

Right: YOU BANNED PLASTIC STRAWS IN A CITY I'M NEVER VISITING??????????? HAVE YOU NO DECENCY??????????? THIS IS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not "insanely triggered" by the plastic straw ban. But i see it as extremists being very good at getting attention, which was the thing i was answering to.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:58 AM   #8673
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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Good policy is how we drive progress. The right will follow and the center will move leftwards. The spirit of 45 was a triumph, if gave us the NHS, welfare etc. That didn't polarise society, it moved the center to the left and changed society for the better for just about everyone.

Policy is where the political debate should be and the progressives/left needs to drive it with well thought out radical polcies, enagaing with the electorate, winning the argument/elections and actually changing things for the better. Not indulging in nonsense about coddling vs screaming, personal abuse/refusing to enagage with huge swathes of the electorate etc etc - the main beneficery of that are the extremists who dont care about making anyhtign better - they thrive best on the anger, fear, social division, economic failure etc
I can see where this applies to the US, because many policies that are mainstream in civilized society aren't part of US society (healthcare, college, maternity leave , gun control etc etc).

But how does what you wrote apply to germany, or the netherlands or other advanced societies? which vital policies are they missing from their framework, that the left asks for and the right denies?
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:55 AM   #8674
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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plastic straws aren't banned in most cities around the world, so how can it be a centrist proposition to ban them?
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:11 AM   #8675
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh - Interest & Discussion

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This term is synonymous with conservative, right? I'm curious what made you think I'm a conservative. I'm neither liberal nor conservative; there are more than two options.
Every single "I don't fit in your box, man" Intellectual Dork Web dip**** always ends up being a vaguely libertarian reactionary but always thinks that playing dumb about it will prevent people from finding out. "right?"

Hey man if you sincerely have never encountered the word "reactionary" maybe talking about political persuasion is above your paygrade? Might want to hit the ****ing dictionary up before you start telling other people what to do.

Quote:
This is the type of discourse I'm advocating against. This doesn't shine well on you to an observer, and it certainly doesn't make me any more open to your viewpoints.
No it shines very well on me. It makes me look perceptive! That I'm asking you to cut the bull**** and skip to the end where you admit that you personally believe all sorts of horrifying reactionary horse**** and that rather than being an member of our team offering constructive criticism on how to change minds you're obviously a member of the opposition offering up concern trolling on how to avoid hurting your feelings will look quite prescient when people press you about your garbage and facile political views.

Quote:
From another thread, this guy seems like the epitome of what I've been arguing for here:
That guy is a self promoting huckster, for one thing. For another, oh, no it's not. Son like I said you think you're ever so smart but that's because you hide in a bubble.

None of the **** you've said and none of the **** you're about to say about coddling racists and being gentle with fascists is new, it's all tired and old.
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