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Old 12-20-2010, 10:57 AM   #151
Felix_Nietzsche
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Re: Pinochet

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Really? Have you ever even read Marx or Engels? Or are you just doing what you do best--spouting category errors left, right, and center?
Yes, I've read Marx.

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No strict 'marxist' advocates violence, since marxism is an inherently action-neutral philosophy. Marxism more a critique of an existing system than a solution to its flaws. Not that you care about reality, though.
Reality?
I've seen pictures of the reality in the USSR, Red-China, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, Vietnam, etc...after the Reds take over.
And reality speaks a lot louder than your claims...

Quote:
And BTW--what was the American revolution, if not bloody, violent, and unlawful? You owe your existence to the violent revolutions you here denounce.
I wasn't aware I spoke out against all revolutions.
But that is no obstacle to you claiming I do...Is it?

And I wasn't aware that the US continentals held mass killings of loyalists.
Where are the mass graves? Perhaps they are under the White House. Yes?
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:02 PM   #152
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Re: Pinochet

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Originally Posted by Felix_Nietzsche View Post
Yes, I've read Marx.
Then please point me to where he advocates violence to further whatever cause you think he has.


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Reality?
I've seen pictures...
'nuff said.

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I wasn't aware I spoke out against all revolutions.
But that is no obstacle to you claiming I do...Is it?
You very clearly spoke out against all violent revolutions. Here is a sampling from one of the many quotes stating thus:

Quote:
Maoists, Stalinists, Marxists, and Leninists believe in using violence to achieve their goals. If you live in a country that is in danger of going red, the odds are there will be mass murders if the communists succeed in taking over. Don't believe me, just look at the USSR, Red-China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, etc... etc... etc... When I see dumbasses wearing Che Guevara t-shirts, I wonder if they realize that this guy was a mass murderer who killed teenage boys and other innocents.
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And I wasn't aware that the US continentals held mass killings of loyalists.
Where are the mass graves? Perhaps they are under the White House. Yes?
You obviously have some arbitrary # of deaths in mind as a tolerable death toll for violent revolutions. Thus negating your denunciation of all violent revolutions.

How many people must die in a conflict to make it worthy of your denunciation? What's your number?

Ask yourself honestly why you are rationalizing this so hard.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:22 PM   #153
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
The funny thing is that homicide rates in Venezuela are similar to Detroit and New Orleans, but I dont want to ruin your fun guys.
Caracas has over twice the number of homicides per person than New Orleans, one of the worst city in the entire US. And even then, the closure rate of homicides in Caracas is pretty close to zero. Trying to compare them is only making your case worse.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #154
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

What case?? the case that crime control is the worse part Chavez has?
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:49 PM   #155
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Chavez defends plan for Internet regulations

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CARACAS, Venezuela -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez defended plans for a law that would impose broadcast-type regulations on the Internet, saying Sunday that his government should protect citizens against online crimes.

Chavez's congressional allies are considering extending the "Social Responsibility Law" for broadcast media to the Internet, banning messages that "disrespect public authorities," "incite or promote hatred" or crimes, or are aimed at creating "anxiety" in the population.
...

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Chavez also rebuffed criticism over the National Assembly's vote on Friday granting him special powers to enact laws by decree in a range of areas for the next year and a half.

Critics called it a power grab
, noting that Chavez will be able to largely bypass the incoming National Assembly that takes office next month with a larger opposition contingent.

"They're calling me a dictator?" Chavez said, dismissing the criticism. "They're the dictators, those who are crazy for installing the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie once again in Venezuela - but we'll never again allow them."
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:21 PM   #156
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

I was waiting for somebody to post the internet fear mongering stuff.

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banning messages that "disrespect public authorities," "incite or promote hatred" or crimes, or are aimed at creating "anxiety" in the population.
This is no longer in the project because nobody liked it, including Chavez supporter. I personally found out that the controversial article was retired from the bill on the 16th and your link is from the 19th which shows that the washtington post has either an agenda or is doing really poor journalism.
Btw in Chile something similar was proposed and it had a similar fate ( nobody liked it and it was quickly removed) but Im sure you never read about it.
Yet when it happens in Venezuela you hear about it and the worse part is that they dont inform you about the part where the idea is no longer on course.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:00 PM   #157
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

valenzuela is Hugo Chavez imo, who else would actually believe this?
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:13 PM   #158
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
What case?? the case that crime control is the worse part Chavez has?
No, that crime rates in the worst US cities are some how comparable to the worst Venezuelan ones.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:19 PM   #159
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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No, that crime rates in the worst US cities are some how comparable to the worst Venezuelan ones.
that was never my case, my question is why arent the new orleans and detroit majors being called one of the worst leaders in the world.

Also of course the worse venezuelan cities are much much worse than the worse US cities, I never suggested otherwise.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:22 PM   #160
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Re: Pinochet

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You very clearly spoke out against all violent revolutions. Here is a sampling from one of the many quotes stating thus:
If you can not understand the difference between a revolution to increase liberty versus a revolution to supress liberty, then I fear further debate with you is a useless exercise...

If you want to believe:
American Revolution = Red China's Revolution

I won't stand in your way.
Believe what you want to believe...
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:24 PM   #161
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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valenzuela is Hugo Chavez imo, who else would actually believe this?
believe what?? What is it exactly that you disagree with. What lie am I telling?
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:22 PM   #162
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
that was never my case, my question is why arent the new orleans and detroit majors being called one of the worst leaders in the world.

Also of course the worse venezuelan cities are much much worse than the worse US cities, I never suggested otherwise.
Pretty sure both New Orleans and Detroit leaders have been called out for their crime rates. Hell, sometimes they even get sent to jail for their corruption. Maybe they aren't called out as much because they aren't the leaders of the country and just Mayor's of relatively small cities?
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:32 PM   #163
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Chavez was called out for his crime rates on my first post.

Do you seriously believe Chavez is one of the worse leaders in the world??
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:36 PM   #164
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

What I learned about Hugo Chávez's mental health when I visited Venezuela with Sean Penn.
By Christopher Hitchens


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In the early hours of July 16—just at the midnight hour, to be precise—Venezuela's capo officiated at a grisly ceremony.This involved the exhumation of the mortal remains of Simón Bolívar, leader of Latin America's rebellion against Spain, who died in 1830...
even as Chávez tweeted the proceedings for his audience—and some teeth and bone fragments were taken away for testing. The residual pieces were placed in a coffin stamped with the Chávez government's seal. In one of the rather free-associating speeches for which he has become celebrated, Chávez appealed to Jesus Christ to restage the raising of Lazarus and reanimate Bolívar's constituent parts. He went on:

I had some doubts, but after seeing his remains, my heart said, "Yes, it is me." Father, is that you, or who are you? The answer: "It is me, but I awaken every hundred years when the people awaken."

As if "channeling" this none-too-subtle identification of Chávez with the national hero, Venezuelan television was compelled to run images of Bolívar, followed by footage of the remains, and then pictures of the boss. The national anthem provided the soundtrack. Not since North Korean media declared Kim Jong-il to be the reincarnation of Kim Il Sung has there been such a blatant attempt to create a necrocracy, or perhaps mausolocracy, in which a living claimant assumes the fleshly mantle of the departed.

....

It did not take long for this hero-obsession to disclose itself in bizarre forms. One evening, as we were jetting through the skies, Brinkley mildly asked whether Chávez's large purchases of Russian warships might not be interpreted by Washington as a violation of the Monroe Doctrine. The boss's response was impressively immediate. He did not know for sure, he said, but he very much hoped so. "The United States was born with an imperialist impulse. There has been a long confrontation between Monroe and Bolívar. … It is necessary that the Monroe Doctrine be broken." As his tirade against evil America mounted, Penn broke in to say that surely Chávez would be happy to see the arrest of Osama Bin Laden.

I was hugely impressed by the way that the boss scorned this overture. He essentially doubted the existence of al-Qaida, let alone reports of its attacks on the enemy to the north. "I don't know anything about Osama Bin Laden that doesn't come to me through the filter of the West and its propaganda." To this, Penn replied that surely Bin Laden had provided quite a number of his very own broadcasts and videos. I was again impressed by the way that Chávez rejected this proffered lucid-interval lifeline. All of this so-called evidence, too, was a mere product of imperialist television. After all, "there is film of the Americans landing on the moon," he scoffed. "Does that mean the moon shot really happened? In the film, the Yanqui flag is flying straight out. So, is there wind on the moon?" As Chávez beamed with triumph at this logic, an awkwardness descended on my comrades, and on the conversation.

....

Even his macabre foraging in the coffin of Simón Bolívar was initially prompted by his theory that an autopsy would prove that The Liberator had been poisoned—most probably by dastardly Colombians. This would perhaps provide a posthumous license for Venezuela's continuing hospitality to the narco-criminal gang FARC, a cross-border activity that does little to foster regional brotherhood.....
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:29 PM   #165
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
that was never my case, my question is why arent the new orleans and detroit majors being called one of the worst leaders in the world.

Also of course the worse venezuelan cities are much much worse than the worse US cities, I never suggested otherwise.
Detroit and New Orleans are both in the Top 5 in the U.S when it comes to highest murder rates. But it isn't fair to compare those cities to Venezuela. The more accurate comparison would be something like Caracas compared to both those cities.

Caracas has become the deadliest city in the world
The National Statistics Institute reported that Caracas had 233 murders per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009

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POLITICS
Caracas has now the world's highest murder rate. According to official figures reported by a survey on victimization carried out by the National Statistics Institute (INE), the Venezuelan capital has become the deadliest city in the world. A total of 7,676 people were killed in the Metropolitan Area of Caracas in 2009, that is, about one murder every hour and a half.
Caracas Murder Rate: 233
New Orleans Murder Rate: 51.7
Detroit Murder Rate: 39.7


It's true Hugo Chavez isn't the Mayor of Caracas and he has other responsibilities but he has constantly undermined the Government of Caracas when it has been ruled by the opposition.

Caracas mayor on hunger strike over hardline Chavez

Quote:
(Reuters) - The mayor of the Venezuelan capital of Caracas said on Monday he has not eaten for three days to draw attention to what he called months of harassment by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Chavez, a socialist former coup leader who first won office of the OPEC nation a decade ago, reduced the power of elected opposition officials this year after they won some key states and cities in a regional vote last November
Quote:
The mayor has lost control over the police, medical and emergency services and schools and says he has struggled to pay workers because of funding delays since he beat a Chavez-backed candidate in November.

Most seriously, Congress stripped Ledezma of control of the large Libertador municipality in the center of Caracas and replaced him with an official hand-picked by Chavez.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:40 PM   #166
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
I was waiting for somebody to post the internet fear mongering stuff.



This is no longer in the project because nobody liked it, including Chavez supporter. I personally found out that the controversial article was retired from the bill on the 16th and your link is from the 19th which shows that the washtington post has either an agenda or is doing really poor journalism.
Btw in Chile something similar was proposed and it had a similar fate ( nobody liked it and it was quickly removed) but Im sure you never read about it.
Yet when it happens in Venezuela you hear about it and the worse part is that they dont inform you about the part where the idea is no longer on course.
Hey looked, they passed it.

Quote:
Congress approved the internet bill, article 28 of which prohibits television, radio or internet messages that “incite, promote or justify crime, the equivalent of war propaganda, fomenting anxiety among the citizenry or that alter the public order,” according to a statement published on the National Assembly website.
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:13 PM   #167
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

13thapostle, why do you keep insisting on the crime stuff? I know its awful and its the worse part of Chavez tenure. Im obviously against his crime control. My disagreement with you is that the alarming homicide rates in Venezuela dont make Chavez one of the worse leaders in the world although they probably make him one of the worst leaders in fighting crime.

On the legislation thing, I dont know the exact law that passed but the initial law was removed and changed for another more conservative law. The article that you cant insult authorites was removed. That was the controversial article. Nobody is against inciting crime on TV not being allowed or perhaps you are.
Anyway I went to an anti-Chavez website to see if the bill had been reintroduced or something and the 6 main stories were the following:
- A plan to change the curriculum of universities.
- police brutality on a march against such plan.
- Chavez spending too much money on personal stuff.
- Lentils and grape price going up.
- A plan to expopriate pieces of land in the south.
- People complaining against the plan.

But I didnt see anything at all in the website about the communications law except from an article that celebrated the removal of the controversial articles while at the same time calling people to stay alert.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:44 PM   #168
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
On the legislation thing, I dont know the exact law that passed but the initial law was removed and changed for another more conservative law. The article that you cant insult authorites was removed. That was the controversial article. Nobody is against inciting crime on TV not being allowed or perhaps you are.
My guess is you don't quite understand freedom of speech. Yes, I think a law prohibiting all incitement of crime, especially since what constitutes incitement will likely be quite broad when that incitement is done by the opposition. I'm guessing the general Chavez promoted who openly stated that the military will not recognize an opposition president won't be viewed as incitement.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:08 PM   #169
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Do you think a Tv Channel should be able to openly tell people to not recognize an oposition president?? Im not for total free speech under your definition of it, for instance I think a TV channel shouldnt be able to use hate speech.

Btw I dont agree with Chavez policies in this regard but the law against crime incitement in television isnt the reason why.
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:53 PM   #170
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
On the legislation thing, I dont know the exact law that passed but the initial law was removed and changed for another more conservative law.
Looks like you're wrong unless this document is wrong:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45291089/P...s-Electronicos

Quote:
1. Inciten o promuevan el odio y la intolerancia por razones religiosas, políticas,por diferencia de género, por racismo o xenofobia.
2. Inciten o promuevan y/o hagan apología al delito.
3. Constituyan propaganda de Guerra
4. Fomenten zozobra en la ciudadanía o alteren el orden público.
5. Desconozcan a las autoridades legítimamente constituidas.
6. Induzcan al homicidio.
7. Inciten o promuevan el incumplimiento del ordenamiento jurídico vigente.
Looks like #5 is the not making fun of government officials

Quote:
Originally Posted by valenzuela View Post
Do you think a Tv Channel should be able to openly tell people to not recognize an oposition president?? Im not for total free speech under your definition of it, for instance I think a TV channel shouldnt be able to use hate speech.

Btw I dont agree with Chavez policies in this regard but the law against crime incitement in television isnt the reason why.
It wasn't the TV channel that did it. It was a General in the army that Chavez then promoted saying the military wouldn't recognize a opposition president.:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/lat...by_opposition/

Odds a Chavez backed general gets prosecuted under this law - 0%. Odds an opposition TV station would - 100%.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:04 PM   #171
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

#5, if my Spanish is working tonight, means failure to recognize official govt. authorities as such. I'm guessing that would mean claiming that the president is not legitimate and has no authority. I don't know if that means that elections can't be disputed or what, but it doesn't have anything to do with criticism afaik.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:53 PM   #172
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Looks like #5 is the not making fun of government officials
No...its that you cant say somebody isnt a legit authority when he is. You can still criticize and make fun of him.

Quote:
It wasn't the TV channel that did it. It was a General in the army that Chavez then promoted saying the military wouldn't recognize a opposition president
Yeah, he shouldnt say that, my question is do you think a TV channel should be allowed to say that? Should a TV station tell people **** the goverment lets kill the rightwing president?
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:43 AM   #173
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Good article at the Economist today:

http://www.economist.com/node/17796581

The last line pretty much sums it up - this isn't a "real" democracy, and Chavez isn't a "democratically elected leader" in a meaningful way anymore.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:03 AM   #174
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Bye bye Venezuela, we hardly knew you.
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:36 AM   #175
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Chavez got owned recently in a HardTalk BBC interview. I was expecting he'd at least be charismatic and articulate, but he's neither. Comes across as rather stupid and childish.
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