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Old 02-10-2019, 05:52 AM   #551
daca
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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But would you like to name an interim president in Saudi Arabia, until elections can be held?
who wouldn’t like to name a president of saudi arabia and then have democratic elections? that sounds like a great idea (and a weird question)
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:30 PM   #552
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

I was going to post this in the Trump thread, but none of you market fundamentalists post there.

Open borders everywhere would address problems like this and economists argue about whether it would double or triple global GDP. You all like to talk about how free market capitalism has done so much good for the world. I assume every single one of you is in favor of open borders. Right?
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:17 PM   #553
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

I am in favour of vastly increased immigration. When or not that would be 'open borders', I don't know - my conservative (small c) streak inclines me to more gradual changes but I'm open to persuasion. It's also not clear what you mean by 'open borders' - anyone can come who passes a background check, they have to find work within x months, they only get full benefits after x years etc. It's not a clearly defined term. But not only do I think immigration is an economic good it's also a moral imperative - hostility to refugees is one of the saddest aspects of the Orange presidency - back of the envelope maths say the U.S will accept ~500k fewer refugees under Orange than Clinton - these are the neediest, the decision to admit them isn't an economic one.

BTW I appreciate taking an aggressive tone against free marketers in the ****ing Hugo Chavez thread. Bold move.
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:21 PM   #554
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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You all like to talk about how free market capitalism has done so much good for the world. I assume every single one of you is in favor of open borders. Right?
you probably hit some pragmatic boundaries if 200 million indians turn up tomorrow, but basically yes with a long phase in.
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Old 02-10-2019, 08:43 PM   #555
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Like many a bad man before him, on the facts Maduro is bad enough. Not to suggest intervention, but the facts aren't great. The US Govt repeatedly in these situations lies about the actions of other leaders to facilitate the change they want to make.
Are you really going to fall for it the 40th time?
Repeating myself: Pompeo said they put tankers and trucks down to block the road. That is the truth, not a lie.

Another truth: Maduro is blocking food & medicine aid from entering the country. In a country where people are starving, dying from lack of medicine, and fleeing by the millions.

You seem to want to refocus this as a referendum on United States foreign policy with nit-picking bull**** about a bridge. A bridge that Maduro HIMSELF BLOCKED.

As I already elaborated, the US is entering the picture in concert with myriad other countries after Maduro became a dictator and squelched the opposition attempting to use democratic means to get him out of office. The last and final resort of the Venezuelan Constitution is the National Assembly declaring Maduro illegitimate and letting the leader of the National Assembly become interim President for new elections. If this doesn't work, all vestiges of the Venezuelan democracy will have disappeared.
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Old 02-10-2019, 09:50 PM   #556
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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As I already elaborated, the US is entering the picture in concert with myriad other countries after Maduro became a dictator
I could believe you, or I could just read wikileaks documents to figure out what was really going on with US policy in regards to Venezuela.

"In August of 2004, Ambassador outlined the country team’s 5 point strategy to guide embassy activities in Venezuela for the period [2004–2006] . . . The strategy’s focus is: 1) Strengthening Democratic Institutions, 2) Penetrating Chavez’ Political Base, 3) Dividing Chavismo, 4) Protecting Vital US business, and 5) Isolating Chavez internationally."
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:10 PM   #557
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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I could believe you, or I could just read wikileaks documents to figure out what was really going on with US policy in regards to Venezuela.

"In August of 2004, Ambassador outlined the country team’s 5 point strategy to guide embassy activities in Venezuela for the period [2004–2006] . . . The strategy’s focus is: 1) Strengthening Democratic Institutions, 2) Penetrating Chavez’ Political Base, 3) Dividing Chavismo, 4) Protecting Vital US business, and 5) Isolating Chavez internationally."
Countries that recognize Guaido as Venezuela's President include Spain, Denmark, Austria and Sweden. I doubt they are part of some 15 year old plot.
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:15 PM   #558
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Countries that recognize Guaido as Venezuela's President include Spain, Denmark, Austria and Sweden. I doubt they are part of some 15 year old plot.
I never said they were. The US, however, was actively seeking to replace/overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela for 15 years before the current constitutional crisis.

To ignore that fact is basically ignoring a huge part of why the country is so FUBAR right now.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:05 AM   #559
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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I never said they were. The US, however, was actively seeking to replace/overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela for 15 years before the current constitutional crisis.

To ignore that fact is basically ignoring a huge part of why the country is so FUBAR right now.
They are FUBAR because they haven't respected property rights, ignored the rule of law, rigged election results, had bad economic policies, and a million other reasons. The US has been their largest trading partner, without that trade things would be even worse. If the US had the ability to snap its fingers and ruin any government it didn't like then Iran and North Korea would have folded long ago.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:50 AM   #560
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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If the US had the ability to snap its fingers and ruin any government it didn't like then Iran ... would have folded long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_I..._d%27%C3%A9tat

Something something about reaping and sowing, right?
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:52 AM   #561
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Omnipotent yet inept, self-righteous yet amoral, marvel at the multifaceted inadequacies of the Great Satan!



We have arrived itt upon "if the US wants it to happen, it must be wrong", consenting opinions and absence of counterfactual evidence be damned!
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:41 AM   #562
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

No, but the US govt is very bad at these decisions. It would be better if we just waited for broad support at the UN before doing anything in FP.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:06 PM   #563
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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No, but the US govt is very bad at these decisions. It would be better if we just waited for broad support at the UN before doing anything in FP.
Well, that gets a little tricky, no? Russia (and to a lesser degree China) at this point will probably reflexively deny support for pretty much anything related to Venezuela and probably a bunch of other topics. On the one hand, you can ignore them, I suppose - but that kind of kicks away the "broad" support theory.

I'm not at all saying I think our mucking around down there is a good idea (it's very much not) - but looking for help at the UN from people you're crapping on in other areas probably isn't the best strategy.

MM MD
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:14 PM   #564
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Security Council does suck. That's why I said "broad support".
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:22 PM   #565
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Security Council does suck. That's why I said "broad support".
Defined as?

I'm not arguing with you, BTW. But I'd suspect that there would be a buttload of countries that would vote on the basis of self interest rather than what is "right" - I mean, how interested in Venezuela is Nepal going to be - but they're VERY interested in how China views the matter, and might well go along with China as a nod to their huge neighbor.

One could argue that the OAS, made up of states that should have a fairly direct interest in the matter, has already (in January) voted to not recognize Maduro as the legitimate leader of the country due to the most recent sham election. Of course, you run into the same issue on the other side of countries shading their votes in terms of what they feel will play best with a particular gorilla (in this case, the US) in the next tree over....

As usual, it's complicated.

MM MD
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:49 PM   #566
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Not perfect. Just better than what one would reasonably expect from the US government. At least there are more competing interests.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:43 AM   #567
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.


Last edited by Huehuecoyotl; 02-17-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:33 PM   #568
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

Well, to be fair, how else are they going to get stuff down there?

To be clear, at this point I have less than no desire to have the US trying some sort of bull**** Arbenz type of play in Venezuela - at the most we should be involved as a member (and not the leading member) of a coalition of South/Central American states who are trying to prevent a humanitarian disaster - and from what I can tell we're nowhere near that yet.

Of course, this would presume President Idiot was capable of doing his ****ing job, which he isn't. I'm afraid he'll turn the whole thing over to Bolton, which will be a complete disaster. I can't imagine this situation is good for Brazil or Columbia, but I also don't see much of a sign they're inclined to do anything about that would lead to US intervention being useful - not that Bolton or Trump would take that into consideration.

But I'm happy to learn more.

BTW, I'm completely convinced that Trump didn't know (and still doesn't believe) that Puerto Rico is actually part of the US. It's full of non-pinkish people and he's at least vaguely aware that a lot of them speak Spanish, so they aren't 'Mericans.

MM MD
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:02 PM   #569
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Also "humanitarian aid" should have a long side eye. I mean come on. The US military is flying in planes on your border and are ready to help deliver aid, would you think aid is a euphemism for something else?
The US military delivers humanitarian aid all the time to places all over the world.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:00 PM   #570
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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The US military delivers humanitarian aid all the time to places all over the world.
*long side eye*
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:45 PM   #571
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

If you really want to understand what went wrong in Venezuela, this is a good place to start.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...P=share_btn_tw

This story has some serious problems, but it is a good attempt at explaining a complex situation.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:07 AM   #572
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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The US military delivers humanitarian aid all the time to places all over the world.
Except Puerto Rico because of the big water between us and them.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:04 PM   #573
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

In Trump's world, there are only enemies and friends. It's better to be his enemy than neither apparently.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:02 PM   #574
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

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Old 02-24-2019, 06:16 PM   #575
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Re: The Bolivarian revolution and Hugo Chavez.

So much for the humanitarian cover
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