yawn:
I mean, if your main response to the question of 'is it a democratic election if you shut down the opposition?' is BUT WUT ABOUT COLOMBIA, which you apparently consider not free, then there's really not much to debate is there? We both agree that Venezuela's elections are not a real democratic election.

Where are the routine arrests?? Thats the claim you made and you are not backing it up.
Also the media thing has been discussed already, can you read the thread before posting?

I can read the media thing just fine, and you're full of ****. Every major international organization of reporters has said that Chavez is cracking down on political expression.

And again, if you want to quibble over what defines routine arrests you've already lost.

appeal to authority. All that Chavez really did was to not let channels who pushed the coup against a democraticly elected goverment have broadcast signals for free TV, all of those Tv stations function on cable TV and all newspapers are allowed to publish their ********.
Venezuela is the only country in the world where the media complains there is no freedom of press there.

Then name just one arrest.

Im just showing you are being manipulated by the US media. They tell you about the powerful TV station not being allowed to push coups on free TV but they dont tell you about the thousand of peasants found dead in Colombia, keep drinking the kool aid and thinking you have authority to criticize a movement you clearly have no idea about.

Laureano Marquez was fined 50k for making fun of Chavez. Miguel Ángel Rodríguez is being prosecuted for inciting a coup d'etat, but really was just criticizing Chavez. It's really not hard to find the **** if you're willing to look at all Val.

I think Chavez does get incredibly petty about humor, which is something I dont support at all, for instance he banned a family guy episode where they legalize weed. You actually have a valid criticism here and I agree with it.
Marquez made fun of Chavez 9 yo daughter though, Im not justifying the fee and I still dont support it but I do feel there is a difference between making fun of Chavez daughter and Chavez.

Also I spent like 15 mins googling about Miguel Ángel Rodriguez and I never found he actually got jailed, in fact he is now a congressmen!

edit: lets suppose that Chavez has illegitamly jailed all the 40 people that I mentioned in my OP, that still wouldnt mean that the elections in 2012 are not democratic. The elections are going to the wire and they could go either way, analists say Chavez is a slight underdog, however oil prices could save him.

lol val, I'm not justifying, but let me do it anyways is pretty awesome.

you said something that wasnt accurate, Im just poiting that out.

No, I didn't. Prosecute != go to jail bro, but it's still violent intimidation that undermines democracy.

I meant you saying that Chavez fined 50k to a comedian for making fun of him.

I never justified it, its still a bullish act. Look I dont agree with many of the stuff Chavez does and I dont think he should be the next president ( i do think he is still better than the venezuelan right though), maybe you missed that part when reading the thread.

Do you still believe the stuff you wrote in the OP?

yes

So the fleeing of capital, empty factories (because there is no innovation), lines for food and constant energy black outs, anti-semitism, dictatorship, press censorship, etc. are reasonable negatives for what benefits exactly?

absolute negative growth and relative negative economic growth compared to most ,if not all, similiar countries?

Where are you getting your information from (ie: anti-semitism, dictatorship, lines for food, etc).

Here is what the venezuelan goverment has to say in their defence ( im not saying this is accurate btw) :

Various independent media reports in Germany with footage of it, and also Wikipedia on the anti-semitism issue.

Just stop believing what a tyrannical Govt tells you. In the GDR everything was fine too if you believed state media and politicians.

The Venezuela goverment is backed by the FAO in all their nutrition stats, if they are part of the lies too then gg I guess.

Also lol at thinking venezuelan goverment is tyranical, it seems people in GDR had a better clue of what was going on than you do, at least they knew they didnt have to believe the press.

If you believe and support an undemocratic socialist dictator that restricts individual freedom of speech and property - I can not really take you seriously here.

see you in the football discussions.

You dont know what democracy means Im afraid.

hint: its not showing up to the ballot box every 4 years to choose between two corporate whores.

im going to Germany to give my personal opinion on how the holocaust never happened, take advantage of the freedom speech and all.

lol I now know why people are saying you have a very poor grasp of issues.

The problem is precisely that the holocaust is mystified by forbidding to talk about it. This attracts all kind of crazy people who think " if it is forbidden to talk about it, there must be something to it" if the issue was not legaly forbidden there would be an open controversy that would die out pretty quickly. That is the benefit of freedom. You cannot arbitrarily prohibit certain forms of speech.

Also in Velenzuela political positions are forbidden. That is far worse.

Or sending judges to jail because they don't rule your favor. That's just like Germany.

Political position are forbidden in Venezuela??? WTF are you talking about.


( also Im not an holocaust denier, I was just giving an example of free speech being denied).

On the judges thing, I would be very concerned if this was true but the problem is that they might actually be corrupt criminals. I think its much more likely than Chavez is looking the other side with judges that he likes than throwing political dissidents to jail( im not defending this).

People seem to think I support everything Chavez does just because I dont think he is a tyranical dictator.

If Chavez was Amurrrican he'd be worst ever for Val.

American foreign policy in latinamerica has been preety much criminal. Supporting and financing dictators that killed tens of thousands.
But anyway lets focus on the guy that has some dubious actions we dont want to derail the thread with actual crimes .