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Old 06-11-2017, 12:14 AM   #26
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
The number of good Christians pales in comparison to the latter group, and they don't speak out harshly against their crazed views, either. It's why you get lumped in together.
Citation needed.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:22 AM   #27
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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You don't really know, but if you do something like file a discrimination suit you have to produce some evidence and some other people have to make a judgment about it.
The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that someone can completely compartmentalize his thoughts that others are going to hell anymore than they can compartmentalize thoughts like "black people are inferior". And I doubt many of you would have a problem keeping someone who wrote such a thought from having a government job.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:31 AM   #28
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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No I'd not hire them on the basis of them being an ******* to other employees or customers. If they want to contend they have to be an ******* because of their religion, and therefore I can't not hire them, I'd take it to the Supreme Court.
You'd lose. If you can show that someone is or would be a bad employee, then you can fire/reject them. But if your only reason for claiming they are or will be a bad employee is their religious beliefs, then you are explicitly discriminating on the basis of religion.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:35 AM   #29
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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When the dude is prefacing every response with, "I am a Christain", he's not sufficiently compartmentalizing it tho, right?

This is just good politics imo. Being right all the time is worthless unless we win elections. Bernie knew goddamn well that he wouldn't see single payer in his lifetime, but he ran on it anyway because it was the politically expedient thing to do.
He was asked a question about his religious beliefs - how do you want him to respond?

Also, wtf at this being good politics.

Last edited by Original Position; 06-11-2017 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:42 AM   #30
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

lol this is the worst politics imaginable.
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Old 06-11-2017, 12:47 AM   #31
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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You'd lose. If you can show that someone is or would be a bad employee, then you can fire/reject them. But if your only reason for claiming they are or will be a bad employee is their religious beliefs, then you are explicitly discriminating on the basis of religion.
yeah well that's not what i was saying and that's not what's happening here. this guy didn't just say he was christian and bernie got all up in his **** because of that. he was publishing bigotous statements under his own name and hiding behind this defense that it's his religion. if the woman from westboro baptist church Shirley Whatever wanted a job at your company you'd hire her i guess
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:10 AM   #32
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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He was asked a question about his religious beliefs - how do you want him to respond?

Also, wtf at this being good politics.
Not like a robot. I had flashbacks of Rubio watching that.

But I concede. I've been drinking too much and I thought since Atheism is on the rise and Bernie is a smart guy maybe he knew what he was doing. Maybe appearing alpha against some guy would look good when half the country is attracted to narcissism. It just seemed like a good use of political capital to my drunk ass
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:21 AM   #33
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by crimedopay420 View Post
When the dude is prefacing every response with, "I am a Christain", he's not sufficiently compartmentalizing it tho, right?

This is just good politics imo. Being right all the time is worthless unless we win elections. Bernie knew goddamn well that he wouldn't see single payer in his lifetime, but he ran on it anyway because it was the politically expedient thing to do.
I don't know anything about the guy. He's probably an *******. He's a Trump appointee. He probably said something publicly that sucked.

But just from that video Bernie is basically forcing him to say Muslims are going to hell which is really what about 200 million Americans supposedly believe, at least if they are really Christian. It's a central tenet of mainstream Christianity. (I believe the standard Islamic thinking is that with God's grace non-Muslims can go to paradise, but I expect most of them think that at least atheists will go to hell.) So, instead of doing as he's goaded to do, that is say, "yes, I think Muslims and Jews go to hell if they don't accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior" he is basically saying "well, I'm a Christian, what do you want? You want me to renounce my religion right here?"

So, in this case Bernie is opening that compartment and forcing the issue.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:24 AM   #34
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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yeah well that's not what i was saying and that's not what's happening here. this guy didn't just say he was christian and bernie got all up in his **** because of that. he was publishing bigotous statements under his own name and hiding behind this defense that it's his religion. if the woman from westboro baptist church Shirley Whatever wanted a job at your company you'd hire her i guess
This is probably fair. His lack of compartmentalization was when he wrote whatever that was about his college.
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:08 AM   #35
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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yeah well that's not what i was saying and that's not what's happening here. this guy didn't just say he was christian and bernie got all up in his **** because of that. he was publishing bigotous statements under his own name and hiding behind this defense that it's his religion.
It is his religion. What he said is that anyone who does not go to God through Jesus is condemned to hell, including Muslims. That's the religion, like it or not. If you are using someone's holding of a religious belief alone as the justification for not hiring someone, that is pretty textbook religious discrimination. Having bigoted beliefs about exclusivist Christians being *******s to everyone doesn't justify the discrimination.

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if the woman from westboro baptist church Shirley Whatever wanted a job at your company you'd hire her i guess
Yes, that is correct, as long as she was qualified for the job. This isn't just hypothetical for me either - I run my own company with around twenty employees.
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:16 AM   #36
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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The number of good Christians pales in comparison to the latter group, and they don't speak out harshly against their crazed views, either. It's why you get lumped in together.

Hey Mr Sklansky, I don't know if you're still reading this but your mods would have banned this person and labeled him as having a "phobia" if instead of christians he said another religious group. The hypocricy is hilarious and I hope you have a chance to read this before my post is deleted.

Last edited by beastalamode; 06-11-2017 at 02:17 AM. Reason: ban him for christianiphobia!
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:22 AM   #37
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that someone can completely compartmentalize his thoughts that others are going to hell anymore than they can compartmentalize thoughts like "black people are inferior". And I doubt many of you would have a problem keeping someone who wrote such a thought from having a government job.
I'm confused. Do people think these Christians go home at night and high-five each other because all the Muslims are condemned to hell? Christian theology, even the exclusivist variants, is usually pretty clear that Christians are supposed to have compassion and love towards nonbelievers.
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:26 AM   #38
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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If you are using someone's holding of a religious belief alone as the justification for not hiring someone, that is pretty textbook religious discrimination.
my issue with not wanting this guy in my workplace is this specific person can't seem to keep his mouth shut about his belief that he's superior to other people with different religions than his. that's his personality flaw that makes him harder to work with, not one universal to all christians.

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Yes, that is correct, as long as she was qualified for the job. This isn't just hypothetical for me either - I run my own company with around twenty employees.
that's stupid. if that's the law and you looked it up, ok, but it's stupid. a baker can choose to not sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of the baker's religion, but you can't not hire Shirley because of HER religion? whoever came up with that system is an *******. somehow claiming religion simultaneously protects you from being discriminated against WHILE protecting your right to discriminate against others

Last edited by ScreaminAsian; 06-11-2017 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:11 AM   #39
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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ok but that's not what i'd do and that's not what's happening here. the issue with not wanting this guy in my workplace is this specific person can't seem to keep his mouth shut about his belief that he's superior to other people with different religions than his. that's a personality flaw specific to this person not all christians
He published an article supporting a decision his alma mater, a religious college, made to fire a faculty member that made statements inconsistent with their statement of faith. That doesn't tell you how he treats people he works with.
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that's stupid. if that's the law and you looked it up, ok, but it's stupid. a baker can choose to not sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of the baker's religion, but you can't not hire Shirley because of HER religion? whoever came up with that system is an *******. somehow claiming religion simultaneously protects you from being discriminated against WHILE protecting your right to discriminate against others
I'm not a lawyer, so don't take me as an expert. Here are the basic guidelines. I see no exception for religious beliefs that you morally disapprove of.

Anyway, what I'm saying is more basic. Religious discrimination in hiring is wrong. Thus, I don't inquire about people's religious beliefs when I hire them. I figure what they do when they go home is their own business even if it's protesting the gays.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:36 AM   #40
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

Pretty sure the majority off democrats are Christians. Wonder how many think the same.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:38 AM   #41
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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He published an article supporting a decision his alma mater, a religious college, made to fire a faculty member that made statements inconsistent with their statement of faith. That doesn't tell you how he treats people he works with.
wat

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I'm not a lawyer, so don't take me as an expert. Here are the basic guidelines. I see no exception for religious beliefs that you morally disapprove of.

Anyway, what I'm saying is more basic. Religious discrimination in hiring is wrong. Thus, I don't inquire about people's religious beliefs when I hire them. I figure what they do when they go home is their own business even if it's protesting the gays.
zealots don't compartmentalize. what's wrong is to hire someone who has openly expressed faith in a system that is discriminatory and there is every reason to know they will practice that discrimination in their position, because herp derp religious freedom
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:20 AM   #42
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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But just from that video Bernie is basically forcing him to say Muslims are going to hell which is really what about 200 million Americans supposedly believe, at least if they are really Christian. It's a central tenet of mainstream Christianity.
No it isn't. It is nothing of the kind. From the cradle I was taught to respect people of other faiths and with a very few exceptions, mainly religous wackos in fringe sects I met in Northern Ireland, every Christian I've ever met had the same view. Catholic doctrine on the subject is very clear: there are many paths to God and if you lead a virtuous life you go to heaven and if you don't, regardless of your faith, you don't.

It is very annoying the way American atheist zealots try and paint the cancer of evangelism in their country as somehow representative of Christianity. That's an American problem, not a religous one. Christians like that are 0.1% of the population in the rest of the civilized world.

Maybe listen to someone like THE ****ING POPE, you know someone with an actual following, for a more balanced view on the subject, than Jebediah the bigot in backwardville.
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:00 AM   #43
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

Meh. In the context, it's clear that Sanders is just looking for reasons to oppose the other side's nomination for a position. The only shocking part of this is that the attack is based on the guy's Christianity, which people are used to seeing as a prerequisite for public office in the US, not a possible downside. If everything was turned around, a Republican attacking a Democratic Muslim nominee who said anti-Christian things on the internet, no one would be surprised at all.
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:39 AM   #44
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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This entire line of questioning should be irrelevant, but as "conservatives" have openly erased the line between church and state, Sanders has a point. If his "Christian" views impact his decisions in his position, yer darn tootin they matter
As a Deputy Director of OMB how do you envision this affecting his decisions?

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Edit: don't agree with Bernie, but lol at standing on principle with these monsters anymore
Isn't Monster just a bit over the top? If not please explain.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:46 AM   #45
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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It is his religion. What he said is that anyone who does not go to God through Jesus is condemned to hell, including Muslims. That's the religion, like it or not. If you are using someone's holding of a religious belief alone as the justification for not hiring someone, that is pretty textbook religious discrimination. Having bigoted beliefs about exclusivist Christians being *******s to everyone doesn't justify the discrimination.
There's a bit of an equivocation going on, though: there are plenty of Christians who don't have this attitude toward other faiths, and it's frankly unfair to paint all of them with this brush by simply saying "I'm a Christian, period" in response to questions about his beliefs.

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I figure what they do when they go home is their own business even if it's protesting the gays.
I think everyone here agrees, but it's a fair question as to how well this fellow can compartmentalize his views when he's interacting with Muslim co-workers. On the balance, I don't think anyone's shown evidence that he can't, but I get why folks are nervous.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:58 AM   #46
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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It is my understanding that Jews, and more recently, Catholics, believe that good people, not of their faith, are not doomed to hell.
"Hell" is neither a place nor a concept in mainstream Judaism.
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:41 AM   #47
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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No it isn't. It is nothing of the kind. From the cradle I was taught to respect people of other faiths and with a very few exceptions, mainly religous wackos in fringe sects I met in Northern Ireland, every Christian I've ever met had the same view. Catholic doctrine on the subject is very clear: there are many paths to God and if you lead a virtuous life you go to heaven and if you don't, regardless of your faith, you don't.

It is very annoying the way American atheist zealots try and paint the cancer of evangelism in their country as somehow representative of Christianity. That's an American problem, not a religous one. Christians like that are 0.1% of the population in the rest of the civilized world.

Maybe listen to someone like THE ****ING POPE, you know someone with an actual following, for a more balanced view on the subject, than Jebediah the bigot in backwardville.
We're talking about Americans. I'm skeptical of your representation, but whatever, most American Christians can "respect" others while believing

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And interpret that as having to accept JC as your lord and savior.

http://www.pewforum.org/2008/12/18/m...-eternal-life/

And 41% of American Christians believe it's possible for non-Christians to go to heaven.

(The title says majority because it's 52% if you count different denominations of Christianity.)


Now, I'm extremely skeptical about what supposed believers actually believe, but that's another story. This is about what people say.
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:11 AM   #48
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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No it isn't. It is nothing of the kind. From the cradle I was taught to respect people of other faiths and with a very few exceptions, mainly religous wackos in fringe sects I met in Northern Ireland, every Christian I've ever met had the same view. Catholic doctrine on the subject is very clear: there are many paths to God and if you lead a virtuous life you go to heaven and if you don't, regardless of your faith, you don't.

It is very annoying the way American atheist zealots try and paint the cancer of evangelism in their country as somehow representative of Christianity. That's an American problem, not a religous one. Christians like that are 0.1% of the population in the rest of the civilized world.

Maybe listen to someone like THE ****ING POPE, you know someone with an actual following, for a more balanced view on the subject, than Jebediah the bigot in backwardville.
Did an American run over your dog or something? Good lord, dude.
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:37 AM   #49
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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We're talking about Americans.
Insular much?
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:44 AM   #50
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Re: Bernie Sanders vs the Religious Christian

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Insular much?
Dude, this didn't start out as an SMP discussion on religion in general. It's about Americans and serving in the government of the United States of America.

If you don't want to talk about Americans, Maybe stay out of a thread about an American senator's questioning of a nominee for a position in the American government.
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