It's not really a hill I want to die on because I'm not a communist. No society has really been pure. Some of our economy is controlled by the state and that has worked well. There are some flaws in capitalism. Capitalist enterprises tend to plan no further out than shareholders, or worse bonus driven managers, are interested in. Some commie countries have had the benefit of long term sustained economic development that is hard enough in a rich country, but near impossible in a developing one. We built a highway system, university system, military system (unfortunate for the most part) with cenrtalized government planning. It was much harder for the USSR who starved one big chunk of their population in order to achieve anything like that. It's not an easy thing that everyone in Cuba has a house, can read and has medical care. Its peers don't have those things.

But I'm just trying to counter what I think is a biased view of history and the world based on American propaganda and nationalism. I'm a serial entreprenuer myself. I want a world with freedom, which means a free market, but what I think is a fair and respectful treatment of labor especially in fully partnering with labor, ie worker cooperatives. Or at least society limiting the power of capital.

I am not sure how much of that history is biased. I can't speak of Cuba and it's neighbors as I have never lived either there or in any of its neighbors.


If Cuba is the best example of Communism working, then I think it's likely a suboptimal system. It might be better than its neighbors but then again I don't see people from neighboring countries taking risk to go to Cuba.

It is appalling that a guy with a Hammer and Sickle avatar is able to post like it is no big deal. There is no moral difference between that avatar and a Swastika. None.

There are no good communists, just like there are no good white supremacists and Nazis. Communism is the greatest evil in human history. A hundred million people died at the hands of their Communist government in the 20th Century. Every single person is a slave under Communist rule.

There is nothing redeeming about communism. It isn't just an efficiency problem. Communism is a human rights violation. Property rights are fundamental human rights.

If you're a commie then you're cute and adorable.

It is bonkers that people are talking about Cuba being some sort of relative success.

I always see health care and education mentioned. Doctors are slaves in Cuba. They make less than $1000 a year in Cuba. And you can't read whatever you want. The most educated people have no financial incentive to use their education.

Singapore was a socialist country in the mid 1900s and was one of the poorest places on Earth as was its neighbor Malaysia. The per capita gdp was $400 a year at that time. Lee Kuan Yew came to power and developed a system of property rights and free enterprise. Today the per capita GDP of Singapore is $53,000 while Malaysia is still a third world hell with a per capita GDP is slightly than Cuba's.

Hong Kong followed an almost identical trajectory to Singapore and is now one of the freest and wealthiest places on Earth. Markets work. This is not debatable.

We have many examples of capitalism putting property rights waaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of human rights. We can start with slavery and end with the GOP's Obamacare repeal efforts, and there are a lot of examples in between.

I think einbert is misguided, but his posting history also indicates that his heart is in the right place. There is nothing to suggest that he's signing up for genocide, just that he thinks he can separate a system responsible for numerous abhorrent historical atrocities apart from said atrocities. ~All capitalists think the same thing.

No. You don't have any examples.

Slavery has nothing to do with capitalism. Not even a little bit. There is no connection in ideology or even a historical connection. However, every person who has lived under a Communist regime is a slave.

Obamacare has nothing to do with human rights.

So, the Russians and Chinese killed many millions of people, but when you say you're a Capitalist on a Cuban website do they talk about how Capitalists killed 6 million Jews, ruled 400 million Indians, wiped out most of the indegenous people in the Americas, enslaved millions of black people, destroyed SE Asia and caused the destruction of the ME and anyone with a dollar sign avatar should be banned?

Yeah, they probably do. Same thing.

It's pretty disgusting really. It's easy as hell to point out your enemy's atrocities, but we never really accept responsibility for our own. We dropped the equivalent of 33 atomic bombs in Cambodia alone and one of the guys most responsible for it is still a close advisor to presidential candidates.

Slavery was very wrong. That much is true. And nobody really glosses over that part of US history. In fact, it is brought up endlessly. There is no connection in world history between capitalism and slavery. It has been part of every system for thousands of years. There is a connection between slavery and communism. It is built into the system. You don't own your labor.

Hitler wasn't a capitalist. India would almost certainly be better off under British rule than it is now. We fought unsuccessfully to free Vietnam and Cambodia not enslave those countries.

There is no such thing as freedom without capitalism. It is the most important component of freedom. The ability to produce and trade is an essential part of being human.

Oh I see. Capitalism gets the "No True Capitalism" treatment when it comes to slavery, but anything done by anyone nominally communist is an inherent feature of communism.

The first hit on "connection between slavery and capitalism" is from Forbes.com (and it's on the yes, there is a connection side) It's not the least bit controversial to make a connection.

Citation ****ing needed.

I might agree with some of that but India today is capitalist.

Your comment on India being better off under British rule seems a defense of Imperialism.

That reminds me of a book I read, Capitalism and Freedom. It was written by a guy who took part in the economic planning when we overthrew a democratically elected government and installed a dictator. Another notable Capitalist who was involved commented:

Regarding India...Here's one of the things that happens when you're a colony and have no representation:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indi...ng_World_War_I

Friedman's role was a 45 minute meeting with Pinochet. It was minimal. But his students did a very good job. Chile is the wealthiest country in South America today because of it. Chile is a success story.

Allende was a tyrant. Price controls caused shortages. His gov't mandate to raise wages reduced real wages by 80%. His plan to alleviate shortages by confiscating farms and businesses caused capital flight out of the country. And the combination of those things plus out of control spending lead to hyperinflation.

Whether the US should have been involved in Chile is debatable. Had I lived in Chile I would have begged for US involvement to help overthrow Allende.

I see nothing disagreeable with that statement. In fact, I endorse it. You don't have the right to vote for a Marxist. If 51% vote to enslave the other 49%, that is not okay.

No. That analogy is terrible. There was no Canadian slavery. There is no slavery in the US today. There is no Swiss slavery. There isn't a connection. If a country embraces capitalism, there is no reason to be concerned about slavery. If Cuba embraced capitalism after Castro, nobody would say "Uh oh, here comes the slavery."

There is a connection between human suffering and communism, because it has caused misery in 100% of the instances it has been attempted.

Pinochet tortured 30000 people. And the Friedman boys did what Greenspan did. There was a bubble. The Chilean economy collapsed less than ten years later in 1982 and reforms were enacted including socializing most of the banking industry.

India is one of the least capitalistic countries on the planet. #143 To put this in perspective Greece is 127.

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada

Missed your edit. Freedom is incompatible with democracy. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.

Okay? All of that is true. And yet, the country is still significantly better off today than it otherwise would be.

Going from hyperinflation under a Marxist regime to prosperity with a brutal despot isn't going to be a smooth ride.

Freedom is incompatible with pure democracy. It isn't even really debatable. I don't get your snark. Are you saying part of freedom is the right to vote people into slavery? That is what it appears you are saying.

A rough road indeed. So rough that they changed roads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

You're arguing for the overthrow of elected governments by foreign powers and that years of relentless bombing in SE Asia was an attempt to free people. You're not the freedom lover or the humanitarian here.

I am glad you showed up though, because I think you're a concentrated example of something some other people have a hard time recognizing in themselves, partly because it's much less pronounced.