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Old 03-11-2017, 10:56 AM   #26
Sholar
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
Arts and crafts are not the same.
Exactly. Art is a pretty broad term, but I'd expect there to be a human emotional component.

Not all craft/skill is art; not every creative endeavor is art.
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Old 03-11-2017, 10:59 AM   #27
campfirewest
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Re: March LC Thread

I've seen video game art before in Karlsruhre Germany:

http://zkm.de/media/styles/zkm_popup...?itok=JYc7mZho

They also have the PainStation there which I played and sadly lost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation That thing is no joke.....I thought my hand was going to fall off.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:23 AM   #28
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Funny how people who insist programming is art never bother to present examples.
Go read some Ruby source code. If you're familiar with any other language, you'll agree that Ruby is basically art.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:39 AM   #29
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by campfirewest View Post
They also have the PainStation there which I played and sadly lost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation That thing is no joke.....I thought my hand was going to fall off.
Fear is the mind-killer.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:19 PM   #30
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak View Post
Funny how people who insist programming is art never bother to present examples.
Code:
#include<stdio.h>
#include<setjmp.h>
#define R return
#define W(x)for(;x;)
#define I typedef
#define H unsigned
I jmp_buf J;
I void P;
I char L;
I int Q;
I H C;
I long long V;
I H char O;
I H short Y;
I H long long Z;

				       O S[]="syntax_error!"
				  "M@K~|JOEF\\^~_NHI]"; L*N,*K,*
			     B,*E,*T,*A,*x,D; Q(*k)(),v; V z(P),j,_,*
			   o,b,f,u,s,c,a,t,e,d; J l; Q _k(P){ R*K?*K++:
			 ~-d; } V r(L a){ R a&&putchar(a); } L n(){ R*T=j=
		       k(),++j; } O G(P){ *o=d,longjmp(l,b); } Z g(Y a){ R a
		    >>s|(a&~-e)<<s;} C p(L*T) { W(r(*T++)); *--T-c&&r(c);} L m
		  (P){ W(!((v=A[*T++])-f)); R v; } P q(L**N) { O*q; b=!b; f=-~b;
		 u=f|b; s=b<<u; c=s|f;			       a=s<<f; t=-~u; e=a
	       <<u; D=v=u<<t;q=S				    +c-~t; q[~s]=a;
	      q--[f]+=a;q--[c						]+=a; B=(L*)
	      N+~e*e;x=B+e						   ; A=B+e/f;
	    o=(V*)(x+a								); A[-
	    ~s]=f; T								 =K =A-
	   a*f;A[*--								  q]=c+
	   c; *q=!								   c; W
	  (++j&&*								    ++q)
	  A[*q-a								    ]=j;
	  W(v<D									     +c)
	  x[v-									     D]=
	  v,A[									     v++
	  ]=j;									     ++j
	   ,v=									    D=e/
	    t;									   W(++
	     v<=								  D+f*
	      u)x							       [v-D+~
	      -c]=							      v|a,A[
		v]=A							    [v|a]=j;
		  W((							 A[v]=A[v|a
		    ]=j							 ,++v<a*u+~t));
		       for(						 ; E=*++N;T[~d]
			  =a)W						 (*T++=*E++);k=
			    T
		    -K?_k:
		 getchar; } Z h
	       (C a){ R(g(a)<<s*
	      f)+g(a>>s*f); } P _i	     (L*T)
	     { *o||p(T); } V _b(V a	    ){ Z e=a
	    ; R A[*T++]!=v+c?G():~-v	   ?a<<z():c-A
	   [*T++]+b	     ?--T,a>>	   z():e>>z();}
	  V _c(L*	       l){ T=B	    +a; W(j)*T--
	  =v+j%c		,j/=c;	     E=B+  (*B==
	  a+c+u			);W(T<		    B+a)*
	  E++=*			++T; T		     =E ;
	  l-B&&			++ *--		     E; }
	   P M(			Z k){		    L*p,e
	    =a>>		u; m		   ()&&G(
	     ); p	       =T=B		  ; _=j=k
	      ; v=u	     <<t,*		T=a; j<d
	      &&(*T+++=c+u,j=j==-j?++p,--j:-j);!j?*T++=
	     v:_c(p); *T++=-~s; *T++=v;*T++=a*t-s; p=T
	   ; E=T+=s*f; W(k)*T--=x[k&~-a/f],k>>=e; W(T
	  -e*f>p)*T--=v; W(T<E)*p++=*++T; *p=d;} P U
	  (L*E){ V*N=o,f; *E=f=d; W(++f<c*u-u)*++N
	  &&(M(*N),r(f+a*u),r(-~s),p(B),*(T=E)=d)
	  ; } V w(P){ L*S=N,*x=N; E=T=B; E+=a
	  <<f;
	  W(T
	  <E

	  &&n(									   ))*
	  T==a									   -~u
	  ?U(T),T:*T==c?E=S?T=S:T:S?T:*T==(a|u)?S=T:*T==a*f-c/f?E=T:!x&&A[*T]!=f?x=T++:
	  ++T; *T=d;R j&&!x?w():T-B; } P _d(V e){ L T=c*f-f;V o=j*e+v; D=d; A[v]==T++?D
	  =u<<t:e>c&&A[v]==T++&&(v|a)-a*-~f<~-s?D=b+(v&a)+a*f-c:d; D&&(j=o-D); }V y(P){
	  V a=z();W(m()&&v<c+f&&(v-=u<<b)>=d)v?v-b?v-f?v-u?v-=t,a=_b(a):(a&=z()):(a%=z(
	  )):(a/=z()):(a*=z()); R--T,a;} V _f(P){ V e=c; j=d; D=b; *T==u<<t&&(e-=f)&&(*
	  ++T|a)>>f==a-f&&(e<<=b)&&T++; W(D&&(v=*T++))_d(e); R--T,j; } V F(P){ V n=y();
	  W(m()&&v<u*f)v<t?n+=(v-f)*y():v-b^t?n^=y():(n|=y()); R--T,n; } V i(Z n){R n>>
	  a/f?
	  n>>a
			  ?h(n)<<a|h(n>>a
		     ):h(n):g(n); } Q main(Q x
		    ,L**K){ V*A; q(K); W(w())**
		  K-c*c-b||p(B),_i(!setjmp(l)?T=B
		,M(((A=(*o=m()==c-~s&&(j=a|T[-b])&&
	      s-m()==~s)?&o[j-a*u]:(T=B,&_)),*A=F())
	     ),B:(L*)S);		   } V z(P){ V
	    s; W(m()			       &&v<=f*c
	    )R v<t				 ?(v-f)*
	   z():(				  v-=u<<
	   f)<f					   ?v?--v
	  ?G()					    : i(z(
	  )):~					     z( ):
	  (v-=					     f) <u
	  ?v?s					     = F()
	  ,m()					     ==a>>
	   b?s					    :G ():
	   _:!					    (v-=
	    t)?					  --T,_f
	     ():				v-f?o[
	      (T[			      -b]|a)-
	      a*u]:			      !z();
		G();			       }
(I'm still on side programming-isn't-art-but-if-you-try-super-hard-maybe-it-can-be)
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:27 PM   #31
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
Yeah, I don't know what art is.

Sorry for my delay, I've been working on a song ...

Richard Stallman,

Donald Knuth
You aren't Richard Stallman or Donald Knuth, these are top names in the field, responsible for creating more computer science than you know. You can romanticize creating crystal palaces all you want and if you're lucky you'll get to work on something that is fantastic. Mostly you'll be writing services to CRUD user data, or hit some other service and display the results or debugging someone else's code. Oh sure, you'll get to do it in shorts and a T-shirt with a screen shot of some meme that shows off your originality on the back of your monitor, but you'll not be making art.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:29 PM   #32
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Re: March LC Thread

Programming is more engineering than art. Can engineering be art at times? I mean anyone could argue the Eiffel Tower, the Pyramids, the Panama Canal are all pieces of art. But most engineers are just building stuff.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:42 PM   #33
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
Composing a piece of music is Art.
Playing it on an instrument is craft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grando1.0 View Post
Pretty good example
It's a horrible example, musicians bring just as much to the performance of a piece as the composer.

The closest programming comes to art is when the code is elegant and as simple as it needs to be. If you ranked programming skill into buckets every bucket from the lowest to the highest would have a different idea of what code satisfied "elegant and simple" for non-trivial programs. As the skill level gap became larger and larger the code would start to appear more and more amazing. I've never written anything remotely amazing and couldn't recognize elegant code if saw it. Some people may be able to be emotionally moved by a page of code but that doesn't make it art.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:45 PM   #34
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Programming is more engineering than art. Can engineering be art at times? I mean anyone could argue the Eiffel Tower, the Pyramids, the Panama Canal are all pieces of art. But most engineers are just building stuff.
Architecture can be art. Engineering is a science; how strong certain materials are, how to join materials to give the least chance of them coming apart under assumed conditions, how to keep stuff from falling down.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:48 PM   #35
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Architecture can be art. Engineering is a science; how strong certain materials are, how to join materials to give the least chance of them coming apart under assumed conditions, how to keep stuff from falling down.
Engineering very seldom involves falsifying hypotheses. I mean, engineering and science frequently go hand in hand, but they are very different processes.
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:49 PM   #36
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Digital philistines up in here.



Can you not link directly to a certain time on youtube using the embedding function? Anyhow, #t=1m19s

Stupid inartistic forum code.
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Old 03-11-2017, 01:00 PM   #37
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
Engineering very seldom involves falsifying hypotheses. I mean, engineering and science frequently go hand in hand, but they are very different processes.
What do you call materials testing? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it seems to me a hypotheses along the lines of "a column of steel this dimension will support this much load" is very testable. Maybe the application of that knowledge is it's discipline?
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Old 03-11-2017, 01:09 PM   #38
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
What do you call materials testing? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it seems to me a hypotheses along the lines of "a column of steel this dimension will support this much load" is very testable. Maybe the application of that knowledge is it's discipline?
It's a measurement, and it's valuable and important work, but I wouldn't call that hypothesis driven science. It's fundamentally descriptive in nature rather than having predictive value for future kinds of materials. Now, if you come up with a model for how strong an alloy would be based on how much of material y you dope into material x and forge it according to procedure z, then that is science, particularly if you propose an atomic mechanism to explain the origins of your model.
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Old 03-11-2017, 01:48 PM   #39
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Governments running UBI trials - zero
Charities running UBI trials - one

EDIT: I guess Finland has a UBI trial, but it's pretty lame.
I was aware of the Finnish UBI trial, but not the charity one. Link a brother?
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:20 PM   #40
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

There's definitely an art in computer programming. Algorithms and code can be beautiful.

It's not much to do with much business programming anymore. It was more so back in the day when elegance really mattered.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:09 PM   #41
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
It's a horrible example, musicians bring just as much to the performance of a piece as the composer.
No, this is awful.

The composer creates, and is therefore an Artist; the musician interprets and is therefore a craftsman/technician.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:14 PM   #42
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Is acting art?
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:18 PM   #43
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

No. It's also a technical interpretive craft.

(Try telling that to a luvvie, though).
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:41 PM   #44
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
No. It's also a technical interpretive craft.

(Try telling that to a luvvie, though).
Do you not believe in collaborative art? Are comic books art? Which is the artist - the writer or the penciler?
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:42 PM   #45
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
The composer creates, and is therefore an Artist; the musician interprets and is therefore a craftsman/technician.
You are now the mortal enemy of jazz musicians everywhere.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:50 PM   #46
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

And actors, and people who make collages, and photographers...
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:53 PM   #47
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi View Post
Composing a piece of music is Art.
Playing it on an instrument is craft.
I disagree. Surely everyone would agree that the voice is an instrument. Many singers, like Elton John, or Christina Aguilera, generally don't write the songs they record. Other people write them, and they perform/record them. They are still artists.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
You aren't Richard Stallman or Donald Knuth, these are top names in the field, responsible for creating more computer science than you know. You can romanticize creating crystal palaces all you want and if you're lucky you'll get to work on something that is fantastic. Mostly you'll be writing services to CRUD user data, or hit some other service and display the results or debugging someone else's code. Oh sure, you'll get to do it in shorts and a T-shirt with a screen shot of some meme that shows off your originality on the back of your monitor, but you'll not be making art.


musician=/= programmer



Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
The closest programming comes to art is when the code is elegant and as simple as it needs to be.
Would you say this is pythonic?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Cut View Post
Is acting art?
Yes, I think acting is an art.
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:58 PM   #48
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Re: The Art of Computer Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by All-In Flynn View Post
Do you not believe in collaborative art? Are comic books art? Which is the artist - the writer or the penciler?
Sure. Film making is a good example of a (usually) collaborative art form (director, script writers).
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Old 03-11-2017, 04:58 PM   #49
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by NMcNasty View Post
You are now the mortal enemy of jazz musicians everywhere.
Jazz musicians are frequently composers too (Monk, Davis etc).
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Old 03-11-2017, 05:01 PM   #50
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Re: March LC Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
I disagree. Surely everyone would agree that the voice is an instrument. Many singers, like Elton John, or Christina Aguilera, generally don't write the songs they record. Other people write them, and they perform/record them. They are still artists.
The industry knows them colloquially as artists because that's how they categorise themselves, but they aren't really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
Yes, I think acting is an art.
If you think acting is an art you probably need to think about what distinguishes art from craft.
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