America & North Korea - Page 54 - Politics and Economics

Hit the US with impunity?

Negotiations worked. Sanctions have only been valuable as pressure for negotiations to start.

If we were half way smart we could redo 1994 and peacefully end the NK nuclear program. But we're not. The mix of war mongers who see every relationship as adversarial (eg you and China) and western interests who make a ****load of money off the military make this nearly impossible.

KJU wants to stay rich and in power and thus alive. Keep that in mind and negotiations aren't so hard.

I'm missing something here.... If the North was interested in a peaceful accommodation with America didn't they just have 8 years of a sympathetic ear to propose it to? Seriously?

But what did they do.... they not only continued to develop a nuclear program they don't need for defense purposes... but they pressed on with an ICBM program aimed only at us. WHY????

BECAUSE THE INSTANT THEY CAN CREDIBLY THREATEN MASS CASUALTIES IN AMERICA THEY CAN DO AS THEY PLEASE TO "REUNIFY" THE KOREAN PENINSULA AND ABSORB THEIR RESOURCES.

01-01-2018 , 02:42 PM

#1327

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

1. Pretty much if you are clear that you mean the NK dictators and not NK the country. They made the 1994 agreement and then the US hawks have been threatening invasion and contending that living up to our agreement or even restarting talks is impossible until NK does what? There's basically nothing they can do. History shows that. Iraq opened wide for inspectors and it didn't help them.

2. Because it's in our nature. We do it more than any country in the world. To prevent them from getting nukes. Irrational fear. Racism. To make money. To sell arms. To keep the war economy going. And no one can stop us.

Racism??? Honestly??? The yellow menace??? You don't think the US would have their shorts in a knot if Iran was a few months away from threatening mass casualties in America ?

It's in our nature??? Jesus..........

01-01-2018 , 02:44 PM

#1328

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

You don't think South Korea and Japan have "skin in the game"?

Their asses are in the game which is comfortably (for them) guaranteed by the US tax payer

01-01-2018 , 02:45 PM

#1329

otatop

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,721

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

More likely you don't have a reasonable course of action that gets America out of Kim's bulls-eye (you feel better now?)

Nope but I think I could probably come up with something better than "Kim Jong Un of North Korea, who is obviously a madman who doesn't mind starving or killing his people, will be tested like never before!"

01-01-2018 , 02:50 PM

#1330

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

Racism against Iran too.

I doubt you're able to see this, but casually throwing around scenarios where tens of millions of Koreans, north or south, might die, is happening in a way that would be unthinkable if they were European, Canadian, Australian, American etc.

Massive war happening in non-white lands isn't mandatory or anything, but it's thinkable.

01-01-2018 , 02:53 PM

#1331

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Np,

You would make more sense policy wise if you just came out and said that we have no choice other than a massive first strike, perhaps nuclear, on NK.

01-01-2018 , 02:56 PM

#1332

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by otatop

You realize I want China to read him the riot act.... not us. And I'm not averse to giving the North a substantive aid package in exchange for dismantling his ICBM program. He can keep a dozen or so nukes if it makes him feel any better.

01-01-2018 , 02:59 PM

#1333

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Np,

You would make more sense policy wise if you just came out and said that we have no choice other than a massive first strike, perhaps nuclear, on NK.

I agree that WE have no other good option or at least an option I like. But China DOES have an option to intercede. They just need a fire lit under their ass.

01-01-2018 , 02:59 PM

#1334

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

You realize I want China to read him the riot act.... not us. And I'm not averse to giving the North a substantive aid package in exchange for dismantling his ICBM program. He can keep a dozen or so nukes if it makes him feel any better.

Damn. If Obama's position were within a light year of that what would you have thought of him?

01-01-2018 , 03:04 PM

#1335

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

I agree that WE have no other good option or at least an option I like. But China DOES have an option to intercede. They just need a fire lit under their ass.

China might be able to get away with killing KJU and making sure they have more influence over the replacement dictator. Pretty risky though.

01-01-2018 , 03:13 PM

#1336

Chips Ahoy

help me help you

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,869

The notion that China can fix things is a fantasy. The reality: http://allthingsnuclear.org/gkulacki...d-be-a-mistake

Quote:

At some point, however, when sanctions begin to have a meaningful effect on North Korea, China’s leaders will likely conclude they cannot apply additional pressure without triggering a North Korean military provocation.

Some of the Chinese experts advising President Xi think that time has already come. They are the ones behind the Global Times editorial that threatened Chinese military intervention if the United States fires the first shot. These Chinese hard-liners are now trying to bring Russia on board with discussions about a joint statement warning the Trump administration against a preemptive attack on North Korea. They do not believe the United States is willing to risk a war with China and Russia to attempt a preemptive strike against North Korea that has a low probability of success.

Notice how similar this reasoning is to the USA hawks who say China would never risk war with the US. Wishing something to be impossible doesn't make it so.

01-01-2018 , 03:19 PM

#1337

Trolly McTrollson

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 36,769

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

MAD is only relevant of the actors are sensible.

Kim can't really checkmate the USA at this point. He can't have any confidence of getting a retaliatory strike off if America decides to "come heavy".

Of course, Kim doesn't seem to consider we have no reason to invade NK if they aren't a threat with nukes. The have no resources we might want as in the middle east. They have a blood brother hedgemon on their border to "defend" them. We'd have zero reason to attach NK sans nukes. They already hold Seoul hostage....

And rational actors did actually prevent Armageddon. It was a true believer Castro who was in favor of "taking one for team Socialismo". The Ruskies weren't anxious to pull the trigger and they didn't.

Curtis Le May.... well.... thanks for civilian control.......

Ya, no, you should really read a modern history book on the Cuban missile crisis. Blaming it on Cuba is preposterous.

01-01-2018 , 03:23 PM

#1338

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chips Ahoy

Notice how similar this reasoning is to the USA hawks who say China would never risk war with the US. Wishing something to be impossible doesn't make it so.

And that hawkishness has to make some General say the only possible action is a full scale nuclear first strike which would make Chinese or Russian response unthinkable. And that General gets to talk to Donald J. Trump.

01-01-2018 , 03:27 PM

#1339

wiper

still catching up

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 42,897

the first time you said “peruse” I figured you typed it wrong.

the second time I’m picturing KJU walking up and down aisles at the fireworks store.

01-01-2018 , 03:35 PM

#1340

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

The US should really take a step back and let Sweden take the lead for "The West".

01-01-2018 , 05:40 PM

#1341

tomj

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 4,543

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

When was Gaddafi a favorite of the West?

Actually I was confusing him with Mubarak. However the UK certainly had no problem dealing arms to Gaddafi who was on good relations at one point with Tony Blair.

01-01-2018 , 05:50 PM

#1342

Louis Cyphre

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 11,025

Do you have a citation for that?

01-01-2018 , 06:00 PM

#1343

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

Ya, no, you should really read a modern history book on the Cuban missile crisis. Blaming it on Cuba is preposterous.

Maybe a little less smarm and a little more careful reading.

I didn't blame it on Cuba but rather asserted (I wasn't there in the room but only read first and accounts) That Castro was egging the Russians to launch even though it would bring a world of **** on his country. He felt crippling America would have led to the world wide domination of Socialism. And he might have been correct.....

01-01-2018 , 06:05 PM

#1344

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre

Do you have a citation for that?

He never was, but in the early 2000s there was improvement in the relationship.

Here are some people talking about how better relations could have helped with NK as they did with Libya.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/t...m-north-korea/

01-01-2018 , 06:06 PM

#1345

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56,657

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

Source for Castro egging the Russians on to launch nuclear missiles?

01-01-2018 , 06:08 PM

#1346

np1235711

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 1,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Damn. If Obama's position were within a light year of that what would you have thought of him?

My friend if the Nobel Peace Prize winner discovered the cure for cancer I would most certainly take it if i had cancer.....

01-01-2018 , 06:23 PM

#1347

Trolly McTrollson

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 36,769

Quote:

Originally Posted by np1235711

The Americans straight-up dropped depth charges on a nuclear-armed sub. If that's not egging the Soviets on, idk what is.

Coincidentally, I've been reading Daniel Ellsberg's book on the Cold War and holy crap our nuclear policy was absolutely bananas.

Last edited by Trolly McTrollson; 01-01-2018 at 06:29 PM.