Later, in Vietnam and elsewhere, things are very different, but it's entirely reasonable to have thought in 1950 that without containment Stalin takes Japan and I think our occupation of Korea has a lot to do with that.

Not to get off topic but I've been watching M*A*S*H reruns lately. It's been on TV a lot the past few months. It is eerie how relevant the show is in today's world. Frank Burns is basically a 1950's Trump wannabe. There's an episode where he doesn't like how wounded soldiers get all the glory. He even gets a fake purple heart. And Hawkeye says on several occasions to Frank about wrapping yourself in the flag when talking about patriotism.

Then there's another episode about how the Americans are the only country where soldiers don't take responsibility for getting women in Korea pregnant. There's one episode about suppressing free press and propaganda.

I know the show is old and a lot of younger people here are probably saying "LOL MASH." but if you see it on TV, check it out.

If one side consists of Stalin, Mao and Kim-Il Sung the other side better be Hitler.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

Not quite Hitler but not Gandhi either.

Vietnam doesn't "fear and loathe the US and want nukes"

Vietnamese migrate to the US as soon as they can.



I think it's really hard to concoct any decent apologia for the current Kim iteration.

What started out as a misguided attempt at ultranationalism has devolved into a fairly basic autocracy, complete with the hypocrisy of demonizing The West while simultaneously enjoying its exports and denying the people access to the same.

North Korean's have reason to fear and loathe the US and to want nukes AND the rulers of NK have been horrible despots.

With their conventional buildup, does nuclear capability really add that much deterrence for NK?

Seems more like a "big boy pants" kinda show.

I don't really know what you mean by big boy pants, but w/e.

And nukes and the ability to hit, say Tokyo, or Hawaii, or Seattle, or to just use against an American invasion force is a lot more deterrence than artillery aimed at Seoul.

Its an historical basis for constructing a propaganda machine, ie these americans killed off 20percent of your ancestors and destroyed the entire country, thats why we hate them. They could choose to ignore this history ofc but why should they with every US president since then threatening regime change. Why does opposing US imperialism = apologising for kim regime? There is an interesting discussion around how the korean workers party morphed into an autocracy in the most extreme inversion of "Marxism".
Re migration people migrate in the direction of capital hence developed nations tend to have net immigration. Not sure why thats relevant, people need to make a living. Bringing up vietnamese immigration is a bit weird, hey look we flattened their country and they still want to come to America! where everybody prospers yada yada

Re enjoying exports note massive sanctions in place.

Sadaam, Gadaafi

This kind of thing blows peoples minds, like this is the stuff only the communists/terrorists/radical Islamists do... wait that was us?

Chiner and Rusher caught violating sanctions against North Korea.

Guess which one (and only one) Trump called out?

Mexico?

Last time I checked Sadaam and Gadafi weren't next door to a superpower that has sworn to defend them from any aggression.

No, but sadaam and gadaafi were previously favourites of the west so you can't trust the big boys to cover your back.

When was Gaddafi a favorite of the West?

Well.... there seems to be a little issue with NK achieving legit ICBM status with their new found ability to reach the entire USA. If they haven't achieved it yet it is in the cards to arrive very soon. What is the logical course of action?

Lots of countries like France, England and Israel have the capacity to flatten large parts if not all ofAmerica, but I sleep quite well with that knowledge. I sleep quite well with China and Russia with the same capacity as most view them as rational actors. (For the sake of this argument I am excluding a true accidental launch which could certainly be catastrophic). For the time being Pakistan and India's arsenals seem to be in the hands of rational actors.

Rocket Man and the long beards in Iran..... I'm not so sure.

China/Russia seem content not to put NK's balls in the vice as only they could and seem to enjoy America spending enormous sums of money to defend against this threat. It doesn't seem to be in China's interest to make this problem go away.

What about changing the status quo to "motivate" China to act as it seems they are best equipt to "manage" NK? Proliferation is a generally bad idea, but what about arming Japan (need to change their constitution) S. Korea and even Taiwan (if it came to that)with enough Thermonuclear weapons to handle any NK threat locally and to potentially to scare the bejesus out of Beijing?

Maybe they need an attitude adjustment :-) Make the threat from NK to us actually a problem of theirs.....

What makes you think Kim Jong-Un isn't a rational actor?

his hair

Still less ridiculous than Trump's.

I have little understanding of psychology but he is just a bit idiosyncratic, would you not say? Seriously, do you not think he is a little more likely than say France to do something irrational?

I understand he thinks Iraq was "regime changed" by America because Saddam didn't actually have large scale WMD to threaten America. But he has all the deterrence to America in actuality that he needs by being able to flatten Seoul conventionally and inflicting a million casualties.

The only thing that will cause an American first strike is the existential threat to our survival posed by him. That logic alone and his choice to peruse ICBMs make me believe he is irrational. Theater capable nukes with the threat to Seoul can prevent any large scale assault of his homeland

America isn't risking the slaughter of millions of South Koreans unless we are threatened at home.

ya but no1 ever accused drumpf of being a rational actor

Trump only loves 3 things: pussy, money and himself in some order.... he is very unlikely to start WWIII no matter what you fellas think.... but I would prefer this be a discussion of real options.

np,

Of course China has an interest. They don't want war. They don't want more American military presence. But they also don't want KJU to fall and have a flood of refugees.