And I have made this exact same argument on 2 + 2 before. Perhaps I'll make it again if we ever get a government Administration that is not overtly evil.

I think this is the wrong measure. The sanctions on North Korea are justified because its leader is trying to develop nuclear ICBMs. Cuba is not. Sanctions as a form of geopolitical pressure substituting for military force seems like a good thing (eg the Iran nuclear deal). Sanctions as a way to pressure countries to have better human rights might be justified in some instances, but in places like NK and Cuba have clearly failed.

Sorry, I didn't mean as a measure for sanctions, but rather as a measure for "are you a piece of crap human for going there as a tourist". I don't think the people ITT criticizing NK tourists are doing so on the basis that they're undermining our military strategy.

Right, but it shows why it isn't a double standard. I am opposed to sanctions on Cuba because they are harmful to Cubans and Americans and because they are if anything counterproductive to their stated purpose. So I'm not going to be bothered by someone who goes to Cuba. But I fully support international sanctions against NK because of their nuclear program and so will criticize people who break these sanctions.

That being said, sure Otto Warmbier made a foolish decision, but he didn't deserve to be tortured to death as a result. I do feel sorry for his family and anger towards the Kim regime for its brutality.

You might personally feel that way, but I think you should contrast this with the reasons why everyone else here are criticizing NK tourists. I've seen a lot of posts about "death camps" but not one criticizing them because of the NK nuclear program.

not really a piece of crap imo so much as a dumbass with poor judgment and a little too much degen

The UK goes along for its own reasons, which happen to be the same reasons as the US. Kuwait and Iran were British petroleum properties. You've got big banks and insurance companies and you need palm oil and cotton and tin and don't want to pay full price anymore than we do.

i mean the fact that there are human rights issues as well as non-cooperation issues as well as issues with nuclear development/proliferation is exactly why it's so dumb to plan a vacation there. just because a couple people mention human rights abuses doesnt mean that the other issues are non-existent or less important. it's like i said earlier, a lot of it boils down to whether or not there is a mutual good faith effort between nations to cooperate in some way. that basically doesnt exist as it relates to NK and the west

His being jailed, tortured and dead are absolutely not surprising which is part of the thrill of going to NK vs. Disneyland.

Did he deserve it? From our standpoint no. But by NK, absolutely. He came to the country as a guest and he tried to steal a poster to embarrass/humiliate them (from their POV). And maybe he did something bad in prison. Or it was truly an accident. We probably won't know.

Our (American) standpoint that he's from the US, or our (Western/Democratic) standpoint that the punishment of torture and death doesn't fit the crime of stealing or embarrassing people?

Ugh. North Korea is playing the Trump media game against us now.

North Korea: Trump a 'psychopath' who may launch strike to distract from US problems

How is that playing anything against us? Its just typical North Korean jibber jabber.

That we understand when we go there that something like this may happen with an extreme penalty.

Just like doing drugs in the Philippines or driving as a woman in Saudi Arabia (I think). Laws and penalties are drastically different.

This didn't surprise me in the least about NK. Only think strange is that he was released before full sentence served, even in a coma.

I'm not surprised by this, but that doesn't mean it is deserved from the NK standpoint. The laws of NK are fundamentally illegitimate and have little to do with desert. Similarly, I'm not surprised when NK dissidents are murdered, but that also is not deserved.

It's jibber jabber to us because we are rational human beings.

To Daddy Orange however, it's a personal attack on him and he's not quite as stable as you and I are.

Think about it. The craziest lunatic in the world just said that Trump is a psychopath. (I know the paper said it but they aren't printing that unless told.)

I think in many countries, political dissidents are jailed and/or murdered.

What is interesting is that we are discussing other countries penal system of justice when we have by far one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. I don't know if we carry the moral high ground to judge when we jail an inordinately high number of our citizens and are also incapable of rehabilitating them.

I don't think we are just better at locating crime and imprisoning citizens than other countries. And I am not certain we are culturally more predisposed to crime.

It seems both of our systems are quite imperfect. They may have a safer system because of draconian penalties not unlike Singapore where chewing gum is a serious offense.

I may not respect NK sentencing. But if I went to NK, you better believe I would be extremely respectful of their justice system. If not, then you certainly shouldn't go and if you still do, know there will be a risk.

This does raise the "intrigue and adventure" ante for those Americans wanting to go to North Korea. I am certainly interested. It may not be fun though if I would be stressed about not being able to leave. I like to think if you are respectful that there shouldn't be a problem.


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the dubiousness of this claim aside (i really dont know one way or the other because i dont know how many americans travel to NK each year), herein lies kind of a big problem tho- due to differences in culture and levels of relative freedom, there are things that you as an american/westerner might say or do that we as a society wouldn't think twice about, but in NK could be a serious faux pas or even criminal.

without doing a LOT of studying, i dont think any westerner could really have an appreciation for all the differences in the way that we/they as a society judge the individuals. simply put, "being on your best behavior" really just isn't enough to guarantee your safety when you step foot into a brutal authoritarian dictatorship like that.

Agree. Therefore I wouldn't go due to it not being relaxing. I also don't think I could survive any extended hard-labor sentence. I am not old, but certainly not young. I would think any sentence of 5-years plus would be tantamount to a death sentence. Plus, I have no illusion that I am anything that special where America would take military action to rescue me.

But, this does make the trip that much more exciting for others and the student's death will increase interest for those hardcore adventurists. And perhaps some may be reckless and try to successfully get the poster out that the student failed to obtain.

Pretty sure that's not how death labor camps work. Like, the North Koreans don't say "We need 50 bushels of grass pulled by sundown or we will torture you until you die." They say "Pick the grass." If you pull 50 bushels of grass by sundown, you better be pulling 50 bushels of grass a day for the next 5 years. Aww...what's the matter? The days getting shorter? You better work harder.

They are going to work you til you reach your breaking point. There's no quota or something where they'll say something like "Drats! We'll get him tomorrow!"

Uh, we may not have the moral high ground to criticize many things, but the North Korean "justice system" is definitely something with respect to which we do have it.

well duh.

Because it's the most fascinating country in todays world and it's not gonna be around for much longer.

Actually I think Cuba is probably more interesting.

i think belgium is more interesting