Guys, this is not anyone's fault for visiting North Korea, nor is it North Korea's fault for bad things that happen. Nope. The President of the United States already said (on the guy's dying day) it's Obama's fault.

Gotta trust the POTUS more than NK, right?

They pay attention to Stalin's ideas, so they probably know the difference between a tragedy and a statistic.

I live in China and have met a handful of people over the years who've talked about wanting to go North Korea (don't recall ever meeting someone who had). Every conversation seemed to indicate a huge degree of narcissism regarding the impact of random Pyongyang residents seeing a smiling westerner. Also I think there is a huge element of just being able to manufacture something interesting about yourself by being able to say you've been to North Korea.

While I recognize a few grand or whatever is a drop in the bucket, one difference between Cuba and North Korea is that Fatty Number Three's regime is entirely reliant on foreign currency and compared to the Castro regime has limited means of getting there hands on it.

I totally understand wanting to visit North Korea. It would be an entirely unique experience. On the other hand, I don't understand how someone would see paying money to the NK regime to go on a carefully crafted tour of the world's worse police state as more fulfilling in any way than, say, donating money or time to groups in South Korea that aid North Korean refugees.

By some of the rationale give here certainly foreigners visiting the US are dickwads propping up a regime that has imprisoned more people per capita than any other country, is largely responsible for the destruction of at least 5 countries in the last 16 years, routinely tortures political prisoners, and economically sanctions hundreds of thousands of people into their graves.

Seriously, if any of you foreigners get shot by the police when you visit the USA you only have yourselves to blame.

Yes, I am comparing us to NK and it's at least a close call.

Bloody hell.

At least Americans can flee the country I guess, and there are these things called elections that offer hope.

Yeah, NK is worse to its own people. The US is certainly bad to its own people. Millions are in prison. But, mostly we're bad to other people. Does that make it better?

(UK is right along side us in most of that)

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-ko...talism-n419431

Small scale private markets are growing in Pyongyang.

North Korean trip report here. If you scroll down to the bottom there's a link to a Facebook page containing photos from the Mass Games. They're very impressive but depressing when you consider how much they must cost and the lack of food everyone apart from the Dear Leader has access to.

I can completely understand why people visit the country. I've always assumed that it would be pretty safe provided you follow the rules and don't act like a dick head. That said, it isn't my cup of tea and I think there's some major ethical issues associated with going.

If we could have had another potus like Obama in 8 years we'd have totally normalized relations with Cuba, half way with Iran and opening up with NK. Instead it'll be further isolation from 2 out of 3 and war with 1.

Right, because who could forget multiple generations of Michael Brown's family being arrested and sent to prison labor camps.

Or the time all movement of people in and out of DC was stopped because someone spray-painted "Putin rules, Obama drules!" on the side of a building.

have a word with yrself

Cuba, possibly if handled correctly.
Iran, maybe but there is only so much the US president can do. Iran has to change from within.
NK, no way.

These things suck.

So does invading Iraq, Afghanistan, bombing Libya, participating directly in bombing Yemen, and taking prisoners from all around the world to a military prison on an occupied portion of an enemy country.

If you want to go back generations the list gets a lot longer.

It may not be worse to ruin the lives of people outside your borders than inside, but it's not better.

I've generally had the feeling that some people at least meant well, and then that at least we're improving (ie Obama), but now we're the most dangerous country in the world and getting worse.

(War on drugs effing up Mexico, Central America, and parts of South America too.)

You're a Euro, right? Cuba is fairly open to Euros isn't it?

Before Obama Cuba was basically unspeakable in the US. Not quite NK, but close. It's hard to search back more than a year on this site, but I'm sure you could find liberals speaking the same way about Cuba as NK now. There was some of it in the death of Castro thread.

I don't think Iran is a less free society than Saudi Arabia. Probably more free. I don't know if that means you're wrong about it, but the reason we don't have relations with it has nothing to do with their human rights record.

I've got a friend that's been a couple of times and you see adds for package holidays there in the high street travel agents. I haven't looked into it personally but my assumption is that it's no more difficult than going to Tenerife. I'm from the UK.

It is more difficult than going to Tenerife, because Tenerife is in the EU.

It's not much more difficult than going to the USA.

Conflicted on this one. Going to NK is crazy and there is a non-zero chance something like ending up in jail may happen. It doesn't mean you should end up in a coma and dead. But I don't know what the US is supposed to do about it though. Unless we do something with the military, all we can really do is yell.



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I agree with this other than being conflicted. I don't think anyone is obligated to rescue this guy anymore than you're obligated to rescue the Into the Wild guy. People got pissed of at him too.

Yep. I don't even know if it matters if he was even stealing a poster.

I wonder why NK sent him back in a coma vs. just letting him die there and just letting nobody know what happened. It isn't like we would do anything in that situation either.

Maybe it was a NK message to America that you mess around with us, this is what you get.

We'll just have to get even with them. How many North Koreans are in a coma in the US right now?

I don't really know the answer. The US is clearly better domestically but far worse abroad. But ultimately NK is a basket case ruled by an unelected despot who can only be overthrown with the support of the military.

From afar it's seemed for a long time that in its scant regard for the lives of its own people (gun ownership and death penalties, neither of which Europeans under 60 are familiar with) the US was only ever one push away from where it's at now.

The UK has enough foreign blood on its own hands without joining in with the US's tours abroad. I'd have thought one plus of having an independent nuclear deterrent would be that a country doesn't have to do whatever the US tells it to.

Going to Cuba is a cinch for a European, but you need to get a separate visa because if you ever try to enter the US and they see a Cuban visa stamp in your passport....forget it!

US foreign policy does have some successes over the years

one example which is relevant to this thread: sans US adventurism the 50 million people (and their kids, and their kids and so on) who live in south korea would be the personal property of the Kim family

well actually it wouldn't be 50 million because many of them would've died early in life for lack of food, but you know what i mean

We did install a brutal right-wing dictatorship in South Korea which did things like ship 300,000 of them off to fight in Vietnam for us but later they did manage to rid themselves of that regime. (1979)